The Earth Is Bleeding...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dryflylarry, May 14, 2010.

  1. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,051
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Washington
    No no no, don't try to extrapolate this into something that is bigger than it really is or bait and switch the real issue. Save that for the talking heads and politicians. This was a specific deposit that the american people specifically said "Do not drill!" fully knowing the consequences of not tapping that oil. I don't think any one has a problem with oil companies existing. I think they have a problem with oil companies doing exactly what we told them not to do and then saying it's "our fault" when they do and it blows up in their faces. Literally.

    Read this one in it's entirety as well. do you trust these shitbags to run projects like this as well? Maybe if I stop driving my car they would halt the project?
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37256799/ns/technology_and_science-science

    Read the whole article.
     
  2. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,870
    Media:
    283
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Today BP acknowledged that they are siphoning off 5000 barrels a day through the little pipe. They also acknowledged that there is still a tremendous amount spilling that they are not containing. They would not put an estimate on the leak volume. Another engineer weighed in and estimated no less than 10,000 barrels a day is leaking around that small pipe but that total could be as little as a tenth of the true volume. WTF, about 1/5 of the Gulf of Mexico is now closed to fishing. The term tip of the iceburg seems like such an understatement.
     
  3. oldskool

    oldskool Guest

    I was driving home today and heard one of those "top of the hour" news briefs. One of the complaints was that, and I quote, "the chemical that they are putting into the ocean to break up the oil is one molecule away from being antifreeze."

    Hmm......I'm no scientist, but that doesn't seem like a good thing. :hmmm:
     
  4. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,870
    Media:
    283
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    F'ing EPA approved that shit though. I'm sure that will even further devastate the fishing industry and a myriad of beautiful species found in the gulf.
     
  5. fly punk

    fly punk lunatic trout bum

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    oly. wa.
    I've had a hard time stomaching this whole friggin fiasco. It's a travesty and i dont even want to think about what will happens if the oil hits the everglades. The whole argument that we are all to share in the blame drives me up the wall. The powers that be give us no other options. The full electric car was squashed and todays hybrids are priced so freakin high, it's out of my range. It seems that when any alternate energies, not just oil, are brought to forefront it seems it's always "cost prohibitive." We all, as a nation and a world, have to start demanding a shift from fossil fuels toward SOMETHING else. Or this shit is going to keep happening.
     
  6. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,452
    Likes Received:
    842
    Location:
    Beautiful View, WA
    My guess is that the report was trying to be sensational. Being one molecule away from antifreeze doesn't really say anything scientifically.

    After all, O2 and CO are one mere ATOM apart, and yet we need O2 to live while CO kills us if breathed in large concentrations. Common table salt (NaCl) and hydrochloric acid (HCl) are also one atom apart. Etc. I'm not saying the chemical similarity to antifreeze is not significant, but we'd need more detail to know.

    Regardless of chemical makeup, it does appear that the dispersant they're currently using is indeed toxic, at least according to the very many reports from scientists to that effect. The Gulf of Mexico loses either way.
     
  7. oldskool

    oldskool Guest

    Good point. But then you're suggesting that the news media hypes things up just to get your attention......say it isn't so! They would never do that. They alwasys tell us the truth don't they. :rofl:

    Well, if it is harmless....they got me.
     
  8. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    7,148
    Media:
    54
    Likes Received:
    1,227
    Location:
    Not sure
    Turns out that this morning the Feds ordered BP to use a different type of dispersant and to cease and desist with the one they've been using for the past several weeks: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/science/earth/21disperse.html?ref=us

    Then there's this: possible conflict of interests between BP and water quality testing labs raises concerns about accuracy. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/science/earth/21conflict.html?ref=us

    K
     
  9. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,354
    Media:
    45
    Likes Received:
    627
    Location:
    Kalama, WA
    I used to complain about oil dependency until I realized that I drive as fast as I possibly can everywhere I go, pretty much negating any advantage of having a vehicle with decent gas mileage.

    The earth, the fish and everything else will eventually recover. Humans--I doubt we'll fare so well in the long run.
     
  10. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    4,127
    Media:
    203
    Likes Received:
    595
    Location:
    Near the Fjord
    NASA's Voyager spacecraft pushed further out into space than any other mission before them. Voyager 1 and 2 visited Jupiter and Saturn, and Voyager 2 went on to travel to Uranus and Neptune. In 1990, after Voyager 2 completed its mission of visiting the outer planets, Carl Sagan encouraged NASA to have the Voyager 1 spacecraft to take a final picture of Earth, from a distance of more than 6 billion kilometers from Earth. The resulting image showed Earth as nothing more than a tiny spec, a "pale blue dot". That was the name given to it by Carl Sagan, and it stuck.

    Voyager 1 took this photograph in 1990, when it was approximately 40.5 astronomical units from Earth (6 billion km, or 3.8 billion miles). It was taken at a height of 32° above the plane of the ecliptic, using red, green and blue filters. Earth is the little dot circled in the image. The beams you see in the image are a glare from the Sun seen by Voyager 1's camera.

    Sagan wrote a book with the title "Pale Blue Dot", and he gave a commencement address in 1996 reflecting on the image:

    Look again at that dot. That's here, that's home, that's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
     
  11. jut

    jut New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Long time lurker...first time poster! I have read all the thoughts on this subject, and while I agree that this is a sad situation, cant we all agree that a multi-million dollar mess in not what anybody wanted. Do you think BP, Exxon, or anybody else wanted this mess. Lets take it as it is, a MISTAKE! Here is the question that I have...why are the execs from BP being interrogated in front of congress while the spill is still a problem? Shouldn't we let the dust settle a little bit before the vipers on capital hill dig their claws in? Lets clean it up first. Who cares whose fault it is! Clean it up! If court is necessary, there will be plenty of time later. That is the problem with this country...it doesnt matter what the problem is, we are only concerned with whose fault it is!
     
  12. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,870
    Media:
    283
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    If the execs at BP are not actively in the command center working on the problem, and they were not, why not stop by capitol hill and get grilled? Congress is really into grilling corrupt bankers, doping ball players and environmental destroying oil companies. I don't think for a moment that we are only concerned with who's fault it is, but certainly there are some who think it is their place to find fault.
     
  13. ChrisW

    ChrisW AKA Beadhead

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Seattle, WA.
    Two Thoughts Here.

    1. Shared Guilt by vitue of being a consumer of a product:
    Sorry this goes only so far with me. Yes as consumers of the oil market we probably bear a good portion of the responsibility collectively for the pollution created by petroleum, including smog, carbon monoxide, and climate change induced by carbon emissions. We can look to our government to insist on stricter emissions standards, and we can look to ourselves to conserve where we can and consume less. I drive biodiesel 90% of the time and pay 4.00 a gallon which probably negates any efficiency benefit of 45mpg for my pocket. but when I hop in my car to drive 100 miles each way to tempt a few innocent trout, I feel better about it. I could certainly stay home too, but biodiesel works for me and I get to go fishing besides. But this has NOTHING to do with a corrupt system where drilling safeguards (required in Europe and implemented optionally in the UK- BPs home Country) are ignored with a nod from the government. This disaster was plain and simple a result of cutting corners by a wealthy industry that could have afforded to do things right. The consumers of the product bear ZERO RESPONSIBILITY for this mess. Did anyone blame dog owners when dogs were dying because the dog food industry was selling food tainted with toxic chemicals from China? Should we blame babies the next time a protective car seat is recalled because it doesn't do what is supposed to do?

    A recent post mentioned that we should not play the blame game and that this was an accident, and that BP should somehow be excused somehow because BP didn't want this to happen (paraphrased). That is BULLSHIT! First- BP did not implement all available safeguards and appears to have cut corners in the capping of the well. That would pretty much rule out the "accident" or "equipment failure" excuse. Second- If you accidentally smash into someone's car and kill the driver you are responsible. There is no cap to your liability. If your brakes fail you are still liable unless you can somehow prove the brake manufacturer was negligent. BP killed 11 people, ruined a natural resource based economy in 4 states. and destroyed ONE THIRD of our nation's seafood industry. OOoops.... sorry, it was accident? Can you give us another chance? I'm sorry, I don't even think BP is using this excuse.

    I think it is entirely appropriate to question whether or not we should allow ANY offshore drilling at this point. One mile deep from a floating rig should be out of the question from this point forward. Just because the oil is there and we need it, doesn't mean we should drill it. One of my favorite sayings applies here: "Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. And just because you SHOULD do something doesn't mean you CAN do it." Food for thought for BP.


    2. Dispersants:
    Here is the side of the equation nobody is talking about: Its not about how toxic a dispersant is (although if one is going to be used that should be a consideration). It is about whether ANY dispersant should be used at all. Dispersants do not get rid of oil, instead they trap it beneath the surface and emulsify it in the water column, making it more available for fish to breathe. Dispersants keep the lighter compounds from evaporating and make surface cleanup impossible - effectively banking the pollution in the environment FOREVER. The decision to use a dispersant essentially should ride on immediate protection for things that people value at the expense of long term environmental pollution. We might "save" a beach or a few birds, but the toxics from the oil will enter our food chain and eventually our food supply when and if the fisheries eventually rebound. If we eat fish we will be eating BP's oil for years to come. Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (benzene, etc) work through the food chain and bioaccumulate in predator species, just like mercury and PCBs. This will impact the entire Atlantic Ocean and eventually the Pacific. Top predators like whales, tuna, swordfish, (and people) will eventually receive these toxic compounds through the food they eat even if they never swam through a drop of the oil.

    No one can use dispersants on oil spills without an explicit approval from the Coast Guard. As a smaller scale example, if you spill gas at a fuel dock while fueling your boat and squirt some soap on the sheen, it will "magically disappear". Is it gone? No. And you would have just committed a crime according to the Coast Guard. Absorbents and skimmers are the only way to effectively remove oil or fuel from the water.

    If you want to help make a difference and get some on-the-ground information, here is a great place to start:
    www.saveourgulf.org

    CW
     
  14. Tom Arroll

    Tom Arroll Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    287
    Media:
    86
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The Gulf is one of 2 places in the world where Bluefin Tuna spawn, April though June. Sushi fans say goodbye to Toro. Too bad as I have yet to get one on the fly. BP will kill them before I get my chance. We are all self interested greedy little monkeys.

    T
     
  15. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,549
    Media:
    16
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    Location:
    Haus Alpenrosa, Lederhosenland
    Keep in mind that there is no realistic alternative energy source which is readily available, and dissing one another won't make the issue any better. I see you're all trying to keep it together in this regard, and that's great. That being said, I DO see the current administration making attempts to earn political capital with this issue, precisely as the liberal elements did when Katrina hit. I'm also not saying the conservative elements aren't working to do the same, since politics is, ultimately, an emotional rather than intellectual pursuit. So the facts as I see `em are this: yes, it's a disaster; yes, the administration was slow in it's response; yes, it appears that proceedure to cap wasn't followed, or worse-ignored, and yes, those responsible need to be held thus (and pay). My suggestion to all involved is to first, shut the damned thing off, clean up the mess, and then the parties involved can spend their free time hunting up who's to blame. Anything else is cart-before-the-horse hyperbole.
     
  16. Holly Glen

    Holly Glen Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Renton, WA
    Being FROM this area I have seen oil on the water all my life in the Gulf area. Nothing this big though.

    Spills happen all the time, those of us from La. have begged for help for decades. We warned we cried and now ....

    God only knows how many will die from this, have lost generations of businesses from this, or how much more we are going to pay at the pump for this.

    What can we do? Nothin. Or we could start walking and riding bikes when we can. Hit them in the pocketbook/wallet the ONLY way they feel OUR pain.

    THIS is too much to take, the La. fisherpersons are SCREWED FOR GENERATIONS if not F O R E V E R

    The Gulf of Mexico area has long been known as CANCER ALLEY and is one of many reasons I went NorthWest.
     
  17. Stewart

    Stewart Skunk Happens

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    50
    Location:
    Spokane
  18. FE427TP

    FE427TP The Great Sage

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southwest WA
    You do realize that at least 17 oil tankers were sunk in the gulf of Mexico in WW2 ( referenced with http://www.usmm.org/eastgulf.html#anchor474786) by German U-boats releasing 95,000,000 gallons of oil then, how many generations of fishing were lost from that? Really I mean it, how many generations of fishing were lost in the Gulf Of Mexico after 95 million gallons of oil were sank? The obvious answer is None...More underwater oil has leached out of the soil than has been released by spills, the earth naturally takes care of this if we stop messing with it. Being dramatic or sky is falling and saying F O R E V E R, B.S. is just that... B.S.

    The only thing we know for sure about the earth is it has had significantly higher levels of greenhouse gases than we have now, has had significantly higher damage than this, and without our interference; through constant and often catastrophic change it has reached the state that we seem to feel we need to interfere, protect, and prevent from differing from what we want today. We shouldn't be worrying if the earth will survive it, it will, the problem is will mankind survive.
     
  19. Go Fish

    Go Fish Language, its a virus

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,310
    Media:
    32
    Likes Received:
    115
    Location:
    Rheomode, Wa.
    Glad to know that the great sage FE427TP has proclaimed
    that the fishing industry in the gulf will suffer no problems.
    That would make me feel better if I hadn't read any of his other posts.

    Dave
     
  20. FE427TP

    FE427TP The Great Sage

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southwest WA
    And being unable to cite fact or proof to rebut my post he resorts to petty 4th grade level verbal attacks. Here Dave, let me share a link with you since you can't understand what I wrote. http://tinyurl.com/35wjnnv. If you are unwilling to educate yourself on an important subject please refrain from doing other activities like participating in this conversation, community volunteer work, or voting over stuff that affects other than just you. I knew little about oils interaction with nature and how much was naturally present that we might otherwise consider a dangerous level before this happened. I didn't realize that this area has had much larger spills in the past and had been cleaned up by nature to the point that a previous poster said he never saw oil on the sand as a kid. I thought in the past that the chemical dispersants were a good thing. But spending just a little bit of time educating myself on these subject I've been able to refute some of the ill conceived feeling instead of logic based responses by citing fact and actual evidence. Try it sometime :thumb:
     

Share This Page