Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kent Lufkin, Nov 12, 2007.
Yes, my neighbor has. He says it's comparable with the .357 Taurus Titanium both he and I own.
Has your friend patterned this little banger? I'm curious to see what the performance might be, questionable is my personal opinion, but who knows.
Evan, the rock salt load is an old wives tale, it doesn't stand up to the pressures and shock of being shot. You end up dusting them...
He said that the pellets 'spread' more than they would in a shotgun thanks to the Judge's rifled bore. As a result, he thinks that it's stopping power against a human-sized target would be best at from 10 to 15 feet. By 25 feet, the pellets would be too dispersed. But he quickly adds, that's what the two .45 Colt rounds are for.
I used to live in SE Texas, home of the Cottonmouth, a snake that is VERY aggressive. I had quite a few close encounters but was pretty damn accurate with a slingshot. That's all I needed to get one moving in the opposite direction. I'm sure the sting of a large steel ball would also do an ok job in warding off other animals, or people. But even someone on something might not stop without putting a lot of rounds in them. My father was a police officer in Menlo park back in the 60's. They were involved in a shoot-out with someone that was strung out. I believe he said it took about 40 rounds before the guy actually dropped. I hope that I'm never in a situation where I'd have to draw my weapon... but if I have to I'm prepared to use it. Although I'd much rather quietly walk away from any confrontation out fishing.
Warm weather, gorgeous women, blue water..... Yeah, I guess that wouldn't be that great.
Scott, my dad was from the Missouri Ozarks, and yes, the cottonmouth is more aggressive than any snake I've ever seen. There's a small stream called Swan Creek, which empties into the White River at Forsyth, not far from Branson. There were plenty of water mocassains farther up the stream and they could be pretty aggressive. My mom was a tough Montana girl and she was afraid of going up there. Interesting comments on your father's experiences with the bad guy. I was a police officer for a brief time in Orange County, in the late 70's, and I recall stories such as this, especially after officers started using the Wondernines (hi capacity 9mm pistols). My dad was a career homicide detective with SPD and I've heard incredible stories of people shot up badly but exhibiting superhuman strength, not only through substance abuse, but also simple adrenaline. I recall one case where a guy was shot point-blank in the chest with a 12ga with buckshot and ran an entire city block before collasping. Your point is well taken.
Pieter, good comments. My dogs do NOT know enough to stay away from snakes. you can have a bird dog "snake trained", which is fairly common in the southern states where there are more snakes.
This is accomplished with a defanged rattler and e-collar. I understand it has a fairly high success rate, for those dogs which do not sprint right into one before being able to hear or sense it. I have a hunting pal who had his dog snake-broke with this method while he was living in Texas. Despite this, his dog was bitten on the nose in Robinson Canyon a couple of years back. He blundered into the rattler without having seen or smelled it and the snake didn't buzz him. So, it works, at least some of the time, and bird dogs being what they are - bold and aggressive, don't always do what they're supposed to do. I'm thinking about hunting mearns quail is Arizona next spring, and if I do I'm thinking strongly of having my younger setter snake-trained. As for not being able to be in a position to defend my dog with a handgun, well, that's just not true for me. I've been in a tight spot or two where a snake buzzed us and I was able to grab my dog and steer him away before he got into touble, but if I was more than ten seconds slower it might have been different. I could have just as easily shot the snake.
You're already looking at a shell with virtually no stopping power on anything larger than a rabbit even out of a long barrel with a choke. I'm with Roper it probably wouldn't pass the paper plate test.
Recently I've been thinking about a more potent fishing sidearm than what I have. It's the usual problem of weight vs power. I've fired a S&W Scandium framed .357 and it's downright painful. "The Judge" sure is different. I've been thinking .44 special or .357 but .45colt would be a good choice too. If nothing else, I'd like to fondle one.
I haven't been to my local gun shop since the new owners took over, maybe I'll go today.
Too often in gun threads, people give piss-poor advice, like shooting for the foot. There is no training program that will advise that. It's bad defensively. It's bad legally. I'm sure that next week when I'm doing my requalification, they'll still advocate center-mass hits and not foot, knee, hand, whatever hits.
Then there are the people who say they've fished X years and never needed a gun, so everyone who carries one is a Dirty Harry wannabe. Many things are worth having even though they haven't been used in the past. Lots of guys on the river have guns with them and you never know it. They're not waving them around or looking for a reason to use them.
iagree This subject matter kind of surprised me. I'm not anti-guns but due to my ignorance, they make me unease. I plan on taking some gun classes next summer, but until I know more about them I don't want to be near them and you don't want me around you.
Having said that... I understand they're almost obligatory in Alaska. However I'm not sure if they're really needed in western Washington. If I was to list who I worry most about needing to use a gun on, they'd be in this order. Stoned out humans protecting their meth labs, cougars, black bear and road signs. (Just joking on the last one.)
My relatives on my father's side of the family are all experienced with guns. One of the things they've pointed out is as ChadK pointed out above. You pull a gun you'd better be ready to use it. They also pointed out that in a high stress situation, you adrenalin is pumping and the first thing to go is your "small motor control". Even cops, and combat experienced individuals know better then to "aim at the foot". That only works on TV.
Personally, I'd like to hear if anybody on this forum has needed to use a gun while fishing, or experienced a situation where they wished they had one. If so please share it with us.
I was fishing in western PA on a buddies private pond in the middle of nowhere. I heard a strange grunting noise and a rustle behind me. There was a mammouth Whitetail buck sporting a 12 point (6 point for you west coasters) 30 inch spread staring me down. Man I wish I had a gun with me. :beathead:
I am more afraid of people carrying guns around my waters than tweaker or animals. This is too creepy.
Well, I have a story. I've told this before and I know others on the board (and elsewhere) who remember it. In 1993 a buddy and I were on a fishing trip to Blue Lake in the Sinlahekin. After a very late dinner in Okanagon, we decided to stop and camp at a large meadow just off the Conc-to-Sinlahekin road, not far from Conc. There's a small lake just north of there along the road that used to hold brookies and we wanted to fish it in the morning. I'm sure many of you have seen it a thousand times. We were parked about 30 yards off the road and were setting up camp, when we heard a loud pounding of a rig coming along the track (from Conc) that was obviously driving way too fast. I was in the woods about 50ft away from my pickup gathering firewood. My buddy was in the opposite direction doing the same. My truck was parked facing the road and the tailgate was down with a lighted coleman lantern it. When I turned and saw the truck coming down the path I was a bit surprised because the guy was really moving. It was an ancient Chevy Fleetside with a spotlight on top of the cab, and the guy was swiveling the spot back and forth. As soon as he rounded the curve and saw our rig he slammed on his breaks and skidded sideways a long distance, then ground his gears trying to get it in reverse. I just had a bad feeling about this, so I dropped my load of wood and sprinted for my truck, where I had an old .22 revolver behind the seat, unloaded. By the time I had my door open and attempting to load it, my buddy stuck his head in the passenger window and said something like, "what's going on with that guy". No sooner had the words left his mouth when we heard the first gunshot. It was a huge muzzle flash and very loud. It scared me silly and I dropped my shells on the seat. I tried to scoop up a couple of shells from the seat try to load them again, and then the second shot rang out. It was so loud and close it lit up the whole area. I lost it at that point and dropped the revolver and ran. The dome light from the truck cab was illuminating me and I probably made a pretty good target. As I ran around the side of my truck three more loud gunshots rang out, just as loud as the first. My buddy and I sprinted out of camp and ran straight up a hill, but we lost track of each other. I was on a very steep hillside on the uphill side of a tree, keeping myself from rolling back down by pressing my feet against the tree trunk. All I had with me was a little Swiss Army knife, so I opened it up and held it in my hand. I had lost track of my friend, but as it turns out he stayed below in the bushes. Neither one of us saw or heard anything after those shots in our panic to run, but we didn't know if the guy was still there or if he had left. I could see a bit of light in the trees below thrown from my coleman lantern, and I kept watching for someone walking around below me. After probably 20 minutes I began to grow extremely sleepy. So sleepy I couldn't keep my eyes open. I didn't understand it at the time, but since then I've read that people who find themselves in extreme stress of this type sometimes come down from the adrenaline and feel that way. Strange. Anyway, after about an hour I heard my buddy calling to me in a very low voice. We could not see nor hear any activity down by the camp, so we came down off the hill and cut through the woods towards Concunully for several hundred yards or so, then made a very cautious approach in the dark back down the track to where our camp was. The white pickup was gone. We tossed all of our stuff in the back and hightailed it back to town and slept in the town park in Concunully. In the morning I made a police report over the phone from the store, and the next day we drove up to Blue to fish. On the way up we stopped at our camp from the previous night and looked for any signs from the weird night, and I found five empty .44 magnum shell casings on the road in front of our camp. For some reason the guy ejected his shells right there. We were both so tired from the previous evening we didn't get much fishing in at Blue.
I have no idea why this person did what he did. The Okanagon Deputy I spoke with thought he might have been a drunk and pissed off poacher, but we'll never know for sure. But I can tell you this - I will never, ever, find myself in a position where I am unable to defend myself like this (swiss army knife vs. .44 magnum). My whole life flashed through my mind as I lay hidden on that hillside with that rediculous little knife in my hands. Mostly, I thought about my wife and my kids and how much I would miss them. Was this a fluke? Probably. Will it ever happen again? Probably not. But since that event I almost always carry a handgun with me when I go afield. The gun I usually go with is a little S&W Centennial in .38 Special. It carrys concealed or in a pocket and no one ever sees it. I do a LOT of high lakes fishing and backpacking, and I rarely carry a handgun in the high country, but I do pack a handgun in areas where there are humans.
Cool concept. I can see how it could be used in a grouse drive by rather than a snake encounter :clown:. A rock or stick can serve the same purpose but it would be a cool toy to have. Reminds me of the Springfield Armory Scout 410/.22cal except in a pistol.
I have a few handguns from a compact .22 cal to a few full sized pistols of various calibers. Too be honest, I've never packed while fishing in WA although I would. When I lived in NM that was a different story…
Cliff, thanks for the story of your past experience. I'd just about given up on this board for anything substantive, but your post was informative and well written. It makes a good point.
What's creepy to me is that too many people can't differentiate between a responsible, law abiding citizen and those who act without good judgement.
Can someone else here explain this better than me? In areas where there is more gun ownership and folks carrying legally the crime level is substantially lower than in areas that are considered target rich environments (anti-gun, anti-cwp) areas. That is something I've heard over and over and just seems to make sense. I believe the statistics I've read about it but don't know how to put it into words.
Cliff - Great story... well, in the sense of illustrating that you never know what's out there. I used to go out near Mt. Baker to pan for gold. I was out one time and had a couple guys take an unusual interest to my activities and if I had found anything. I'm not sure that they would have been dangerous, but I did get a bad vibe off them. Another time out there, by myself in the middle of nowhere I hiked up to a small creek. I started to pan but got the wierd creepy feeling that somebody was watching. I packed up and started heading back, in a previously empty field where very large prints in the snow heading in the direction I had just come from. I've had people flash guns, but have never been shot at. I'm going to be picking up a small 9 in the next few weeks and will probably keep it with me when I go out.
Kent, good job stirring the pot again. I don't know anything about the Taurus. Glock 23 here.
Scott, I've heard a very similar story from a hiker who had some problems with miners near some high, remote diggings. Sometimes bad things happen, and I think the key is to be aware of them, but not paranoid. I have to admit that it was literally years before I felt totally comfortable while camping near humans. Every time I'd hear a car drive by or see distant headlights in the night I would become fully awake, and wait for them to pass by. My buddy who endured that night with me told me the same thing, kind of like vets talking about something they had experienced in war. Now, I don't think about it much, but the pistol is there with me in the truck, just like the shovel, axe, water jug, coleman stove, etc. It's just one of the tools.
I've heard that said by people that advocate or defend the idea about everybody carrying a gun. (Like after that campus shooting this summer.) I don't buy it. The United States has the highest gun ownership AND murder rate in the western world. I've lived in other countries in Europe and their murder rate combined don't approach ours.
Guns aren't the problem. I think it's the gun culture/mentality that we've grown up with. I've said before, and I'll stress it again. I'm NOTanti-gun. I own some guns, but it's irresponsible gun owners, and our culture that equates manhood with gun ownership/use that just provides fuel for the rabid anti-gunners.! :beathead:
What??? More guns = less crime. Is that similar to more weapons = less war? Listen, TP the bottom line is without a gun nobody gets shot. Doesn't mean you can't get injured on the river but what are the odds? If they are high, then we should all carry guns all the time. There's always a chance at something happening anywhere you go. And what are the odds of you being able to effectively use your weapon at the right time, have the same perception of the situation, come out without an injury or killing someone, avoid jail time, not feel guilty about shooting someone, etc.
Obviously nobody is going to change your mind but my thought is that I'd rather risk an occasional freak than think I need a gun to solve a problem.
Check out http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/research/?page=lott_mglc&menu=pro for some more info.
I do agree that guns aren't the problem and people are. But in the US we have a lot of problem people.
BTW...IF MORE GUNS = LESS CRIME, HOW DO YOU FIGURE YOUR RIVERSIDE ATTACKER KNOWS YOU HAVE A GUN??? AND HOW DO ALL CRIMINALS EDUCATE THEMSELVES THAT THIS IS A HIGH GUN OWNERSHIP AREA.