The ultimate fishing sidearm?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Kent Lufkin, Nov 12, 2007.

  1. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Posts: 2,051
    Washington
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    No doubt man. not arguing the legality of it, just the practicality. :beer2: It is also perfectly legal in washington state to stick your tallywacker in an electric socket. I Just don't want to see anyone here get f-ed..... in a bad way. :cool:
  2. East Fork Active Member

    Posts: 1,200
    Vancouver, WA
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    I didn't know that. :):):)
  3. PhlyPhisher New Member

    Posts: 85
    shoreline WA
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    iagree
    Snake,
    Well said!!! Thanks for a great posting! iagree
    As I stated earlier in this thread; I'm not knowledgeable about guns and therefore I'm not comfortable around them. (I also don't own a handgun.) I plan on taking a gun safety class next year for reasons that I'll state later in this posting. Until then, I have no plans to be a "Goofus". (I've a feeling that there's more than a few on this site. Which is a shame because it makes rational/reasonable gun owners targets for the rabid anti-gun crowd.)
    I'd like to ask for some advice/information on some points of view or stories I've heard from my gun experienced relatives in Wyoming. The bulk of them are ranchers that act as hunting guides during the slower winter months. They love to sit around and tell stories, but I don't always know if I'm being B.S.d or not. So please give me your take on some of these stories...

    One is about a guy they claimed they knew that was treed by a Grizzlie. They said he was carrying a pistol, (the guy, not the bear,) in event of this sort of situation. At any rate, the bear was standing upright on its hind legs trying to reach the guy when the guy shot the bear in the head. According to my uncles, the bullets just kept deflecting off the bears head. They said due to the angle of the shots and the thickness of the bears skull, all the guy was doing was knocking fur off and making the bear angrier. Supposedly the bear eventually ran off. (So, you guys that are gun/hunting savvy; Is this likely?)

    Story #2: They told of a guy that was up in Alaska fishing when he was charged by a Kodiak. (sp.?)
    The guy was so frightened that he forgot about his gun and ran behind his jeep. The bear ran around the car chasing him. Finally the guy in desperation crawled under the vehicle. The bear hooked one paw under the car and lifted two wheels off the ground while swiping at him with the other. The guy kept rolling away and the bear dropped the car and went around to the other side and repeated the process. When the car was dropped it bounced down and hit the guy under the car, breaking his collarbone and arm on his shooting side. Eventually the bear wandered off. I know the Kodiaks are big bears, but is this a "urban legend" and/or what good would a handgun do you in such a situation?

    And as I promised earlier in this posting...I'll explain why I'm considering learning how to handle a gun and buying a handgun.
    A few years ago I was hiking to a fishing spot. I fished for a few hours and on my way back along the trail, I noticed cougar tracks. They were on top of several of my foot prints. This causes me to think I was being stalked. This really freaked me out! I wanted to run, but was afraid that it might provoke a chase situation. (I knew that the odds are that if a cougar is stalking you, you'd never know until he made you dinner.) I've camped, fished and hiked for years prior to this and never worried about such an event. Now I can't seem to relax when I'm out in the woods. I know even tho the cougar population has exploded over the last few years, the odds are I'd never be attacked and/or stalked again. But that doesn't make me feel any safer. I really hate the feeling that I'm being watched while I'm fishing. So I'm considering buying a gun, for my peace of mind. (But then I've got the gun to worry about when I'm not home.) Any advice and/or insights about the wisdom of buying a gun or the plausibility of the above stories.???
  4. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Posts: 7,136
    Not sure
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    Great post. See the first post in this thread.

    K
  5. Mike T Active Member

    Posts: 849
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Ratings: +54 / 1
    Phlyfisher-

    Grizzly's foreheads are sloped and their skulls amazingly thick. This sounds entirely plausible. I've heard of other stories like this.

    Re Kodiaks, they're huge, programmed to pack on the calories and very smart. I'd believe this story.

    Consider Grizzlies and Kodiaks to be about as well armored as a rhino or stryker vehicle. The head is thick and sloped on all sides, the hide is thick with fur and fat very tough to get to the vitals. They're well protected against a man with anything less than a rifle or a shot gun at close range with buckshot or a slug.

    IMHO the problem with a handgun that would kill a grizzly is that you have to hit a fast moving target with your body undergoing an adrenaline dump the likes of which only a combat veteran would have experienced. You have maybes six 300 grain bullets to hit this animal. Those odds aren't good. Most men can handle a 38 to 45 with little training, but an effective handgun round for a Grizzly would require at least a .460 or .500 cal round. They're total hand cannons and not easy to master. Couple that with a cost per round of $3 not many people will practice to become proficient.

    Re cougars you'd be good with a 40 S&W or larger using ball ammo. The key with Cougars is not to trigger that chase mechanism in them. You did the right thing to stay calm. the only thing you could have done better is make yourself larger somehow. Do this and you'll likely never need to resort to your firearm. Cougars are like other predators they somehow know not to get injured and go for hte weakest prey. Another option is to bring a buddy fishing who's in worse shape than you, all you have to do is outrun him not the cougar.

    One note of caution, people get hurt going to guns in high stress situations when they're not used to that and only practice once a year or so at the range. If you do get one I suggest you shoot competitions like IDPA so you can get the sense of what it is to shoot on the move, reload under slight stress and hit your targets when you're breathing hard crouching or lying down. It's much different from standing at a bench at your range. If you want to test this go to your range unload your gear then go out and sprint once around the parking lot then go back in and try to hit a stationary target at 15 yards.
  6. Tony Mull Member

    Posts: 832
    Lake Stevens, WA, USA.
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    # depending on the gun it is entirely possible. certainly if it was not a .357 or 44 mag it would not likely penetrate a large griz skull even at close range. i've seen studies that indicate this. a 12 guage slug does not penetrate the skull but crushes it. those tests were done on confiscated bear skulls by AKF&G. what is not likely is being treed by a grizzly, he would have been caught.

    #2 a large kodiak would have little trouble flipping a jeep, but it's hard to believe it would not have just flipped it and grabbed the guy. I saw a video made by the park service when they were designing bear proof containers for parks. At one point they used old cars and as long as a griz could get its claws into the crack where the door met the car it popped the door right off with no problem. when they could not they often turned the car over in frustration, breaking windows was not enough fun for them. even when a seamless type container was developed the bears often turned the things over. these were not kodiaks but montana and wyoming grizzlies (pups compared to kodiaks)
    luckily kodiaks are much less aggressive than montana grizzlies.

    again, when i really thought there was significant risk of bear trouble i carried a double barrell with various combinations of loads. i had a buddy who swore by his 44 mag for years but when we had to exit a tent with a bear outside one night and my sleeping bag zipper jammed so he was first out, he grabbed the shotgun and i ended up scaring the bear off with his pistol. he always carried a shotgun after that.:hmmm:

    any gun makes an effective noisemaker and might just be better in that role whether you're talking about bears or tweakers.
  7. Scott Keith Member

    Posts: 602
    Arlington, WA
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    He speaks the truth!!! I have shot a lot at ranges in controlled conditions. Nice easy, take your time, I'm a pretty good shot. I joined the navy and got the opportunity to shoot in boot camp. What a different experience.... shooting while someone is yelling at you... I can only imagine what it would be like to shoot when your life depended on it. I've heard stories from my dad of close quarter shootouts, lots of rounds, only 5-10 feet inbetween shooters and no one gets hit. There was one shoot out between 4 or 5 cops and about the same number of gang bangers... they were about 15 feet away from each other and spent something like 100 rounds in just a few moments. I think 2 of the bangers got shot and 1 cop....

    Scott
  8. PhlyPhisher New Member

    Posts: 85
    shoreline WA
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    It doesn't take a big bear to open "bear-proof" containers. I use to belong to the Seattle Mountaineers. Once I was told a story about a couple that were sleeping in their tent one night when they were awaken by a noise outside. They peeked out their tent to see a small black bear rummaging through their stuff. The guy told his wife not to worry since he had the food locked in a metal ice chest. The black bear sniffed around the chest and then hooked his claws into the crack of the ice chest and popped the lid off like it was a pack of chips and proceeded to eat everything. So much for the idea of storing your food that way!

    I was camping with some friends once when while sleeping with them in a tent one night we were awakened by some noise outside in the dark. I told them that I thought it was a bear. One of the guys said, "don't worry, I've got road flairs to scare it off with." I asked him where they were and he said "in the bottom of my pack." I told him "great, while you're digging the flairs out of your pack as the bear's coming through the door, I'll be making a new exit out the side of the tent." :rofl:
  9. Jon Borcherding New Member

    Posts: 535
    Tacoma, WA
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    If you are ever so unlucky to be involved in a shooting you can rest assured that the P.A. will give your entire life an enema and all the macho drivel you pour out in threads like these will be on display for the judge and jury.
    People who exercise their 2nd ammendment rights need to be more careful when they exercise their first ammendment rights. Those of you supporting the pacifist approach may continue to blather unfettered by similar consequence. The one drawback to your approach is that, in an armed confrontation, you will lose.
    Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choices.

    JonB
  10. tkww Member

    Posts: 461
    WA
    Ratings: +66 / 2
    There are a lot of things going on in this thread. Trying to stop a kodiak with a handgun is both scary and funny. Funny as in, absurd: there is no gun big enough. What you should do is be smart enough to avoid the situation in the first place. But since this is in washington, let's talk about more likely scenarios. Black bears, cougars, and tweakers. A .357 could handle any of those. A larger caliber could handle some of them better, but regardless, all require practice and the right choice of ammo. Corbon makes hard-cast ammo that will penetrate well. It might not drop a bear in it's tracks, but a good shot will eventually lead to it's demise. Better eventually than never if it's chomping on you. A hard-cast bullet from anything from a .357 and up would do a number on a cougar. There are any number of ammo choices for tweakers.

    If you're serious about stopping a bear in it's tracks, you're automatically elevating the conversation to something beyond a handgun. At best. While the gun mentioned in the initial post is interesting, I think a gun that you can comfortably practice with make more sense for most people. I have no idea what firing a shotgun slug out of a revolver feels like, and really don't want to know either. You can get snake shot for a .357, .44, etc.

    And yes, if you're going to carry, you'd better be damned well ready to use it. Pepper spray, etc. are a good idea if looking for an alternative.
  11. Mike T Active Member

    Posts: 849
    Gig Harbor, WA
    Ratings: +54 / 1
    originally posted by TKWW

    For a bear attack my first choice would be Bear Spray (a riot gun would be nice; but too heavy). Bear in mind that most encounters with Grizzlys end in bluff charges and don't escalate beyond that. The gov't won't look kindly upon you shooting a griz at 30'.

    It would also be an effective non-lethal alternative for tweakers, or cougars. It's much more effective than the human equivalent and has an effective range of 20' or so. Cost is about $50 for canister of spray and a holster so it doesn't get buried in your pack. REI has it.
  12. zipmyfly New Member

    Posts: 71
    Beaverton, Oregon
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    I've always carried bear bells and pepper mace, until I was out wone day and stepped in some bear poop that had bells in it and had a peppery smell to it.
  13. Keith Hixson Active Member

    Posts: 1,499
    College Place, Washington
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    I don't carry firearms while fishing. Even though I live in Snake Country and have encounter my share of rattle snakes. I have alway found them to be non threatening. I was raised out in the sticks of Umapine, OR. and we had many rattle snakes around when I was a kid growing up. When it comes to rattle snakes, if you can hear them and see them you can avoid them. Why shoot them? More people die from bee stings than snake bites, do folks go around shooting bees?
    If I was fishing in areas that have a large conscentration of bears especially those members of the grizzly family I probably would enjoy the protection of a firearm but other than that I see no real need to carry a firearm.

    Keith
  14. mr. bad example Member

    Posts: 221
    poulsbo
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    i am suprised that no one but me has posted the obvious benefit of carrying a sidearm while fishing, if you find yourself endlessly swinging flies through stacked up schools of salmon with no takers shoot them! this also clears out the punks who might be tempted to crowd you out of your favorite hole.
  15. KerryS Ignored Member

    Posts: 6,697
    Sedro Woolley, WA, USA.
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    I blew the front window out of an old rental house with my 12 gauge to kill 6 or 8 hornets buzzing around on it. Cost to replace the window was 50 to 75 bucks, can't remember exactly. The look on my roommate's face who was standing next to the window when I blew it out was priceless.:rofl:
  16. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Posts: 2,051
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    Phlyfphsher, I've been hunting on a couple occasions where I've run into fresh cougar tracks running parralell to mine. I know on one occasion, It had just started to snow and I walked about 100 yards. I had dropped my can of copenhagen so I walked my tracks back. There were cougar tracks next to my tracks that were not there when I walked in and had the exact same snow cover as my tracks. That sneakey sonavabich was between 10 -30 feet behind me for about 50 yards and I didn't even know it. His tracks stopped where rabbit tracks crossed my tracks. For my own piece of mind I like to think he was just hunting the same trail as me. Sorta using me as his hunting dog. :cool: I never found that can of copenhagen. If you're going to carry, carry big, 44 mag minimum. Put at least 300 - 600 hours in at a range before you even think about carrying one. My gun of choice for black bear hunting for a while was a 44 mag. It packed a good punch and was easier to carry through thick brush than a rifle.
  17. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Posts: 2,051
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    I put a couple rounds through a 50 cal desert eagle that would beg to differ.
    :beer2:
  18. PT Physhicist

    Posts: 3,544
    Edmonds, WA
    Ratings: +711 / 2
    I was escorted off public land a couple years ago up around Darrington by a local who made sure I saw his revolver in it's holster the whole time we walked to the road. When I got to the road there were 3 more of his friends waiting so that we could have a conversation. It went something like this.

    "Don't you know you're on private property?"

    "No, I've been walking in here for the past 10 years and have never seen a POSTED sign or private property sign." It wasn't pirvate land.

    "Well, all the land from the mill down to the Gov bridge is private property." Total BS.

    "I didn't know that but thanks for informing me. I've been walking in here for years and even making sure to carry out garbage when I see it but, thanks, I'll make sure to be more careful next time." De-escalating the situation.


    The entire time I wa looking at 4 guys and 2 of them were showing revolvers. I wasn't scared in the slightest and at no point during that ordeal (had I been carrying) would I have even considered escalating the situation.

    This is how the next 20 minutes of our conversation went and it had a lot to do with the fact one of them was responsible for dredging a new channel which ended up being talked about quite a bit here. We talked about property rights and the fact many of the folks up there were just looking to save their property. We talked about how more and more fisherman are walking the banks and many of those are flyfishermen. He explained to me that 10-15 years ago if someone wanted access to the river they would knock on the front door and ask permission which was almost always granted. He also said that now days people just park next to your driveway and go wherever the hell they please without asking and most of the people that do that are carrying these exceptionally long rods. It's called disrespect. He was tired of it.-- While I disagree with much of what he did I could in some way see where he was coming from

    What does this have to do with carrying while fishing. Had I been carrying the whole situation would have played out the same way. At no time did I feel I was in peril even though they were packing.

    10 years before this I was on SF Stilly when 4 guys (wasted and fried) confronted me and were hostile about wanting my dog. I broke down my 8100 RPL and was gonna make sure the first guy to me got the butt section thru his body and the other 3 I'd deal with as they listen to their buddy scream (yes, this is what goes thru your mind when you're in the situation I was in). Had I been carrying at that time I would have had a different decision to make. Probably would have done just as I had in the first place. Talked my way out if it but made sure they knew this wasn't going to be the easy pickens' they thought it would be.

    Just because a person decides to carry doesn't mean they think this is the wild west.
  19. Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Posts: 2,051
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    Also, you guys make a great point about education. At my high school many years ago, from october to january, there were enough guns and ammo in the trunks of cars in the parking lot to invade a small country. Even with all of the chemically imbalenced hormone raging retards (myself included) that I went to school with, no one ever shot anyone. The final bell rang, we jumped in our cars and headed to our favorite hunting spots. The reason no one was hurt? Education. All of the kids were taught by their fathers at a very young age what the business end of a gun is used for. There wasn't any fear of guns and thoughts of using it as anything other than a tool. The anti gun lobby has successfully put enough fear into weak minded individuals about a subject they know nothing about. Now people are even afraid to let their children see a gun, let alone teach them about how to handel onesself around one. These people are the reason guns are dangerous, not responsable people who own them or the guns themselvs.
  20. Fishful Thinking Member

    Posts: 311
    Redmond, WA
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    Phly Phisher, you already realize that if a cougar is stalking you, you won't know it until you're dinner. So, what use will a gun be to you in your situation? Seems it'll only serve to make you a little crunchier for the cat.