Tipping Point

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by miyawaki, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. PT Physhicist

    Posts: 3,544
    Edmonds, WA
    Ratings: +712 / 2
    The old timers killed their limit every day they were able to catch their limit. Days they didn't catch a limit they killed what they caught. How is that comparable to people fishing a CnR season under selective rules?

    Ya, I should just let this die but would like to hear the reach on this one.
    jake-e-boy likes this.
  2. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,395
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,355 / 9
    Quoting peoples posts without using their exact words and presenting them as if they were quoted is poor form.
  3. flybill Purveyor of fine hackle, wine & cigars!

    I'll give them both gold stars.. Along with Bhudda who will get a whole pack so I don't mess up the corners!

    Still can't figure out what you and FSA are trying to accomplish.. Or why you keep trying to argue with guys like Steve, Curt and Wayne who know way more on this topic and that we are fortunate to have on this board! Gold stars for them too F---luver! None for you!
    jake-e-boy likes this.
  4. FinLuver Active Member

    Posts: 424
    Mid-Willamette Valley
    Ratings: +95 / 0
    Gin Blindness for flybill...

    or is it the cloud of smoke? ;)
    flybill likes this.
  5. KerryS Ignored Member

    Posts: 6,697
    Sedro Woolley, WA, USA.
    Ratings: +1,744 / 0
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ~ Abert Einstein

    Or in this case saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over 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and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over 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and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
    jake-e-boy likes this.
  6. smc Active Member

    Posts: 374
    Up River
    Ratings: +25 / 0
    Poor form, I know. I just couldn't resist. :)
    KerryS likes this.
  7. flybill Purveyor of fine hackle, wine & cigars!

    No gin for me! Its scotch or Bourbon for me and a cigar or five.... :)
    FinLuver likes this.
  8. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,470
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +1,609 / 0
    FSA,

    You chronically overlook that the position of OS is not to add risk. OS seeks an approved Skagit steelhead management plan that allows CNR fishing when the run strength (health) is high enough to support fishing without impacting future population abundance. So yeah, it does seem like you're grandstanding because you selectively pick out the OS points about resumed fishing, but ignore that fishing has had no population impact over the last 35 years and will have no impact in the coming years, because no fishing will occur when run strength is low, below a threshold that is above the level where seeding the habitat to capacity occurs.

    (having posting problems so will break this in two.)
    PT likes this.
  9. Salmo_g Active Member

    Posts: 7,470
    Your City ,State
    Ratings: +1,609 / 0
    Your selective reasoning appears to prevent you from seeing that while not fishing adds zero risk, fishing under the conditions proposed by OS adds exactly the same degree of risk. Maybe you don't know much about fish populations dynamics, or maybe you just like to argue for the sake of argument. It certainly seems like the latter, given how many times and how many ways I've tried to explain this. You're not on ignore of some people because they can't tolerate dissenting opinions. It's because you keep repeating the same argument over and over, no matter how many times it's been disqualified by the facts that we do know.

    OS won't be remembered as either heroic or for being complicit in bringing the run to ruin unless all observers exercise your selective screening of the facts. I think OS is more likely to be remembered for exercising reason in the cause of conservation: preserving the species for as long as habitat is available for it, and for providing valuable social and economic assets in the form of recreation at no ecological cost to the resource.

    Personally I think the risk of the angling public pounding the resource into oblivion is non-existant. First, the agencies won't allow it. Second, extreme conservation tends to be self-limiting. When the population, at carrying capacity, becomes low enough that the amount of time spent fishing doesn't yield enough reward, anglers turn away from that resource.

    I mentioned in earlier threads on this topic that there are summer steelhead populations on Vancouver Island streams that number about 200 fish or so and CNR angling is allowed. Most anglers avoid those fisheries. The fishing there appeals to that odd group that is willing to expend great effort for small rewards and find the fishing worth it. And there likely is an associated incidental mortality, but it isn't enough to "pound the resource into oblivion." The environmental degradation already did that, and the limited fishing that continues adds no measurable risk to population extirpation. But you would close those rivers to fishing I presume. Congratulations? But to what purpose? Your unwillingness to see that it just does not make any difference is rather astounding.

    Sg
    PT likes this.
  10. PT Physhicist

    Posts: 3,544
    Edmonds, WA
    Ratings: +712 / 2
    To put this into perspective, I used to fish over a run that numbered 600-1000 fish. These were counted fish. When it dropped to 200-400, I quit fishing for them. I could have still had some 3-5 fish days with those numbers, but decided to leave them alone.

    When returns on the Skagit are low, it'll either be closed or people will have very low success rates. Numbers high, people will be catching more fish but also fishing over a healthy stock.

    I can't come close to a couple peoples way of expressing themselves on this site and thank God they take the time to teach us all a little bit of something. Thanks men (Salmo/Smalma/and a few others)!

    I'm done..... until someone posts something (that I consider) stupid (in my opinion)! ;)
  11. Chris Bellows The Thought Train

    Posts: 1,626
    The Salt
    Ratings: +753 / 0
    looking forward to your next post in this thread ;)
  12. Peyton00 Active Member

    Posts: 709
    Puyallup, Wa.
    Ratings: +288 / 0
    This thread is an example of how comprehension levels of certain people are never quite to task.


    Some people are better off being left alone to wonder as they wander. Usually taking a step to the left or right and guys like FSA and FinLuver are falling far behind.


    I agree with Salmo about the variety of ways he explained the situation.
    I have read his posts on other sites, his knowledge is vast and his ability to explain things in laymans terms is excellent.

    If people cant pick up what he is laying down.... its nobodys fault but their own.
    Salmo_g, KerryS and PT like this.
  13. Ed Call Mumbling Moderator

    Posts: 17,395
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Ratings: +1,355 / 9
    Raising the Ghost. Watch it for the friends enjoying a trip of a lifetime. Listen to the experts, biologists and anglers. Hatchery and wild fish are not the same. That is my only point.
  14. skyrise Active Member

    Posts: 591
    everett, wa.
    Ratings: +51 / 0
    others say it much better. we need to keep the interest high & eyes focused on our streams, so as to not loose a generation of anglers & then have the opinions out there that the "rivers are dead so don't worry about that dredging, clear cutting, etc."
    just my 1/2 cents worth.