Tribes want free Discover Passes

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Go Fish, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. thanks for the info. i just wanted to add that mistreatment of the tribes and tribal members is not some historical footnote from centuries ago. many of the kids beaten for speaking their language are still alive today. many of the tribal members mistreated during the fishing wars preceding boldt are still alive, and the animosity and racial tensions post-boldt are within the lifetimes of many of us, even if we were very young at the time of boldt.

    we can have real discussions about our differing opinions on treaty harvest, but we do ourselves in by not at least acknowledging their absolute right to 50% of the fish. why would they even want to have a discussion with us about harvest, recovery, etc when so many of us would be jumping up and down with joy if their rights they fought and bled for were stripped from them?

    they want discovery passes? it is not that big of a deal to me.
  2. Alex,

    Funny thing about the education component and how feelings have evolved. Every Indian as an individual agrees with the importance of education, but the majority, acting collectively attach a negative stigma to succeeding in "the white man's world." APPLE - red outside/ white inside, which is just plain stupid because a contemporary education if extremely valuable regardless of which culture or combination of cultures one chooses to embrace and practice in life. I've heard that the same feelings affect the black community as well, but I don't have any first hand experience.

    As far as can be ascertained, both sides were satisfied with the treaties as written in 1855. Each gained valuable resources and attributes that mattered to them, and neither had to give up anything critical to their lives and lifestyles.


    The treaties don't prohibit either the state or the tribes from taking advantage of technological advancements. It's interesting that so many contemporary white citizens feel that the Indians should be restricted to the technology of the 1880s, but don't advocate restricting themselves to the same. Unplug your computer, disconnect your home from the electrical grid, get rid of your car, etc., etc.

    And as Dustin points out, the tribes traded (sold) fish at and before treaty times. Dried salmon made its way as far east as the Great Plains, but I'd guess that wasn't common. And the Indians sure fished commercially to satisfy the growing demand for salmon by whites - who didn't fish in those days. Salted salmon was shipped from Puget Sound to California in the 1800s, and those salmon were caught and sold by Indians.


    Not all regional tribes signed the Stevens treaties, the Chehalis, Shoalwater, and Colville, and maybe the Spokane (not sure) come to mind. The non-treaty tribes were not wiped out or doomed for lack of treaty signing. Some have fared better than others, mostly according to their land base and the resources, or lack, thereon. A sort of ironic twist is that the non-treaty tribes do not have treaty protected fishing rights.


    In order to move the direction you appear to favor a number of federal laws would have to be changed. When Slade Gorton (who was the state attorney general who through some colossally bad moves lost the Boldt Decision) was a WA state senator he tried to do just that, and in DC it went over like a lead ballon. I don't think he was able to secure a single co-sponsor. So your feelings may be very strong, but they are not shared by the US Congress, where it would all have to go down in order to happen.

    Regarding Article 9, Congress repealed that in 1954 as I stated in an earlier post. You need to read more of the thread to keep up.

  3. our nation, which existed then and exists now, stole from them. their nation, which existed then and exists now, lost everything at our hands. you keep making this issue about individuals, and it's not.
  4. SG, I was quite aware that Article 9 was no longer relevant, and had planned to expand more when I posted that but got distracted and drifted for a bit.

    My point regarding that particle article was that people want to cling to every letter of the treaty, yet obviously its not untouchable as parts of it HAVE been changed already. Now I know next to nothing about the political wheel and how it turns, so this thought is based on my own inner workings, but it sure seems to me that if one portion of the treaty could be eliminated, why can't the rest of the treaty receive the same attention? Clearly we are not living in the same world today as when they signed the treaty, a fact obviously reconized by our government since they eliminated a mighty ridiculous article 9, so why are we still operating under the same thought process as 150 years ago?

    I just have a hard time taking it seriously when someone wants to quote portions of the treaty as if they were etched in stone when changes have been made.

    I will readily admit that I know nothing compared to many of you regarding this subject, so obviously this is all just my humble opinion.
  5. This is a pretty good thread. I'm learning a lot about the Indian treaties.
  6. It has been very educational for me as well. Lots of well thought out posts. I've enjoyed reading it. I'm hoping it doesn't stray too far across the line and get shut down.
  7. The HDT quote has been at the end of the words I add to the forum for longer than you've been here. Like it or not. We don't have to agree on historical perspectives, because it is clear that we don't. To me that means you are way off in left field and we are playing a football game. I'm likely in the same place in your eyes. I have read my share of HDT and will speak loudly whenever I wish about whatever I wish. I don't think that any of the tribes should get a free pass because they want a free pass. Our current government system gives passes to disabled folks, I'm for that. Other than that, I'm for equally charging the rest of us that use the resource. I'm for equally using the resource and right now I don't think our 1855 to 2011 balance of ongoing and escalation of reparations. Done is Done. Time to stop "forgetting" to fin clip the tribal hatchery drones. Time to fish with the same gear permitted by one set of rules, not two sets that are as dissimilar as your opinion to mine.

    You want to keep playing the bigger and badder dude and taking your conquests, fine. You want to keep bending over backwards apologizing for the sins of some of our forefathers, fine. I want to get over it and get on to some unification of process, regulations and future plans.
  8. :thumb::thumb::thumb:
  9. as i said before, there is no room for working with the tribes when we believe that they should have their treaty rights stripped. the tribes are not going to sit at the table when we are intent on pulling the chair out from under them.

    for me, i purchased a discover pass because i use the state parks, don't want a ticket, and support state parks, dnr, and wdfw access. that others don't pay, either via treaty or just not wanting to, has zero impact on how i choose to live and make decisions. the people who choose not to pay and support state parks and other public parks and access have to look in the mirror and live with their decisions. i sure try to not get upset over things, especially little things, that i have no control over.

  10. I like it a lot. I love everything I've read from HDT.
  11. Nick,

    Of course treaties can be changed - when both parties want to change them and negotiate those changes. Actually, Congress can unilaterally change treaties, but generally they're reluctant to do so. An example, the Nisqually Indian Reservation originally included what is now Ft. Lewis. Congress decided the army needed a fort and took it out of an Indian reservation instead of buying the land on the open real estate market. I strongly doubt Congress would do that today.

  12. Richest? LOL ....

    And as far as "Power", Romans, Mongolins, Russian, Chineese, and the English may have a pretty darn good argument for you.

    You guys are missing the entire issue. Who cares who screwed the natives over. The problem is none of us should have to pay to visit these parks. We already payed for it and are bing taxed twice. Don't be pissed at the white man or indians or whomever the indians took the land from originally. We're all taking it in the ass equally in 2011.
  13. this is the most prosperous and powerful nation in the history of the earth. the fact that we are currently at a point of terrible debt on the continuum is only a reflection of our increasingly corrupted value system which is built on the bedrock of wealth and greed and entitlement- which is to say, bedrock deteriorating into sand. those other empires exercised all of their might to expand and conquer on the military front, whereas this nation no longer believes (for the time being) in outright imperialism. some might say that we learned our lesson from the travesty of what we did to the natives of north america. it's the moral value system contained in our constitution which restrains us from doing the things necessary to conquer and control, but the US to this point in it's history could have built itself into an empire through conquest which would dwarf any of those you mentioned, in land mass, influence, and wealth.

    i do agree wholeheartedly that no one should have to pay the fees, but i don't think that amounts to the "entire issue".
  14. GDP Per capita we are between #7 and #10 on the scale, depending who you ask. Also we're second to the Euro Union on Nominal GDP.

    No it is a reflection of the fact that we are no longer the richest nation on the planet and our heads are up our asses debating about weather or not an freaking indian should have to pay a $30 fee to visit land he already owns. It's the equivalent to me coming home and realizing everything in my house has been stolen and then only bitching about the fact that I have to replace a roll of missing toilet paper.
  15. Seriously? Qatar, Luxembourg, Singapore, Norway, Brunei, and the UAE have more money per person? Of course they do. The only one of those whose population tops 5MM is the UAE at around 8, and that's only because they are an Arab version what the EU really is - not a nation but an economic club of little guys. You can't seriously compare them to the U.S. in the context we are discussing. Break up the EU number into its real comparable components and the next closest GDP is nearly tripled by the USA.

    You're reaching by trying to suggest that America is not the richest country in the world, and splitting hairs to do it. But this is all beside the original point: as a nation, not a particular generation or individual, we did something very wrong and have benefited immeasurably from it. No amount of money could ever make it right, IMO. The urge to make it all go away like an irreparable backlash in a casting reel is understandable but simply doesn't apply, and ignores the incredible level of messiness and complication inherent in the fruit of our national actions. "All neurosis is a substitute for legitimate pain" - said Carl Jung. In other words, if you hit your hand with a hammer, you should expect it to hurt like hell. To make it not hurt like hell will require either a natural and slow healing process, or a quick shot of something to make you feel like you aren't injured even though you are. The notion of just telling ourselves that enough time and generations have gone by that we can treat this issue as if it's fruits have all fallen and produced no offspring is neurotic. We live with our choices as a nation, good and bad, just like we do as individuals.
  16. Perhaps you two should take your discussion offline.

  17. Please send me a PM when you think it's time that I can stop apologizing for things which I haven't done. At some point we all need to put the past behind us and lift ourselves up on our own.

    You've made your point (or tried to) time and time again in this thread. Maybe you should just listen for a while. Just a thought. Your next post will be exactly like your previous one which was exactly like the one before that, and the one before that, and the one before that.

    If one has to pay the fees it only seems right we should all have to pay the fees.

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