Up one line? Two?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Jake L, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    I've decided from the excellent input in another thread to get a Rio Outbound type III sink. I'll be putting the line on an Echo Classic 10' 6wt. Its a moderate fast action rod. I know many people here are upping their line weights one or two sizes with lines similar to the Outbound. Due to various circumstances (timing etc), I may not be able to try different lines on the rod before buying my new line. If this is the case, I'd like to have as much information as possible when picking what line size. So I'm opening up a new thread hoping for as much input as possible.

    Who out there is upping their line weights on integrated shooting heads? What is your set up?

    Those who are using standard shooting heads, if you know the head weight (or close to it) shout it out so I can compare.

    Thanks all for the input. Hopefully I can go see Leland or Les and get their help and wont need this thread, but it sure can't hurt.
     
  2. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    219
    Media:
    5
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    B.I. and surrounding points
    I asked the same question about the OB when I bought it and was told by the 2 guys at the shop that the OB is already oversized so just use the same wt. as your rod. I don't know if this was sound advice but it is what I was told and I like the line so far.

    Also, there is a good thread on the OB and how casting it is different relative to other lines...the advice there has been really helpful. I'll dig around and see if I can find it. The running line is problematic but if you manage it adequately you can really shoot it out. What ever you do, don't give up on it.

    Edit: Found it...the tip about letting a little line slip thru on the final false cast added 15 feet to my casts:
    http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?t=41512&highlight=Rio Outbound
     
  3. snbrundage

    snbrundage Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    seattle, wa
    SciGuy

    Just goes to show that you can hear anything at the fly shops.

    Jrlyman

    If you are going for the type three Outbound, then you definitely want to overline that six weight at least twice. The Outbound 8 weight might be perfect.

    I can't recommend Les Johnson for more advice on this matter. If I were you I would shop online where the astute researcher can find good deals.

    Steve
     
  4. Rob Ast

    Rob Ast Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,966
    Media:
    36
    Likes Received:
    265
    Location:
    West Pugetopolis WA
    I'm not sure where this advice comes from, but the fly shop info was correct - the line is already over weight. In fact if you get the whole head (45ft) out of the tip before you shoot you are seriously over-lining the rod already (measured for a standard 30ft line wt). While I have not used the type III, I have the outbound floater and intermediated in 6wt for my 6wt rod and they work fine.
     
  5. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    3,866
    Media:
    194
    Likes Received:
    1,277
    Location:
    Pipers Creek
    Aren't the heads on the Outbound lines only 37.5' long?
     
  6. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    Yes the heads are 37.5', and they are already overweight. But I'd heard of people overlining (new word) beyond that. The Rio guy e-mailed me back saying such. I'm still considering a 7wt line, but it looks like 6 wt will likely be the way to go. SciGuy, great tip on that thread. I did a bunch of searching around, but didn't come across this one some how.

    Thanks all.
     
  7. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    3,866
    Media:
    194
    Likes Received:
    1,277
    Location:
    Pipers Creek
    Just curious, what made you decide on the type III for your beach line versus say an intermediate in the Outbound?

    If it was my decision, I'd upline to a seven for a 6 wt.
     
  8. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    4,100
    Media:
    100
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    I'd tend to agree with Stonefish, particularly for the 10' Echo stick. It will be a little more challenging to load than a 9' stic.

    Stonefish recently purchased an Airflo 40+ fast intermediate line in a 7 weight for his Redington CPS 9'6" six weight, and has been absolutely ecstatic over the combo. He swore that it added 10' to 15' to his cast, and knowing Stonefish and that he typically under-exaggerates, that meant a lot. We hit the beach yesterday, and he was absolutely laying out some casts that anyone would be proud of; heck, 10 to 15'? It was more like 20' to his casts, with fewer false casts!

    I also agree with Stonefish that you should really, really, really consider the intermediate head for beach fishing. I'm betting if you took a poll of experienced fly fishers who use this or similar lines (say the equally outstanding Airflo 40+ or the SA Streamer Express) that the intermediate head would be the preferred set up for beach fishing. As noted earlier, I fished with Stonefish and several experienced beach fly fishers yesterday. there were 5 of us, all using 6 weights, and a person relatively new to beach fishing using a 7 weight. Here are the lines used on the 6 weights: WF7 Airflo 40+ intermediate; WF6 Clear camo (standard WF line); WF6 Outbound intermediate (he wishes he had instead purchasd the WF7); Mastery Bonefish WF6F (he said because the line had available; he usually fishes a clear camo); and a Rio Striper WF7 multi-tiip with clear tip.
     
  9. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,668
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    137
    Location:
    .
    Yes the 8 weight would be perfect. If you wanted to throw the equivalent of an 11 weight line on your 6 wt rod...
     
  10. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    Well I think that perhaps an intermediate line, while the most versatile, would sink too slow to make fishing more than a couple feet deep very difficult. At 1.5 ips sink, it would take about 24 seconds to sink to 3 feet. That seems to defeat the purpose of the shooting head design, minimal time wasted false casting and maximum distance. I feel that something sinking more around 3.5 ips would still be effective at fishing the surface, while allowing me to fish deeply with less time wasted.

    But I will fully admit that I have zero experience with lines other than wf floating. So perhaps I'm misunderstanding these sink rates. In my understanding, if I cast out a fast intermediate line sinking at 1.5 (ish) ips, with say an 8 foot leader and a slow sinking fly such as a clouser tied with bead chain eyes, it would probably take about 20 seconds to let the FLY (not the line) sink to around 5-6 feet. Is this roughly correct? Call me inpatient but that seems too long to me.

    Also, would I be incorrect in assuming that with a type III line I could simply begin stripping at a moderate rate right off the bat, and keep my fly within a foot or two of the surface? (this is assuming I'm using something lightly weighted or no weight.

    I likely could be very mistaken about the real world depths these lines would be reaching. I think that in beach fishing for coho it is beneficial to be able to fish depths of 4-8 feet, or even deeper sometimes. Am I mistaken here also?

    All your help is appreciated, I hope I do not come off as arguing with you guys, I'm simply explaining my reasoning.

    Oh ya, and though I'm trying to make up my mind on SOMETHING, haha, I can't help but be drawn to the airflo because of the shorter head, and easier running line, and longer length (not that I can cast120', but its nice to know I could...:rofl:)
     
  11. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,668
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    137
    Location:
    .
    I blame Randall Kaufmann... In his "Lake Fly Fishing" book, he said that intermediate lines stop sinking when you retrieve them staying at the same level. Just ain't so, but it's been repeated since then as gospel. With no countdown, my intermediates are 2 to 3 feet deep at the end of the retrieve, and my weighted flies are deeper than that.

    A type 3 will be draggin' ass and corallin' sculpins before you reach the halfway point of your retrieve. I do cast long, and often retrieve slowly, but trust me, every SRC in the vicinity will see your fly with an intermediate line.
     
  12. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,668
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    137
    Location:
    .

    Oh and in another post, I made comment on these long head lines, and I do consider the airflo long. It's obviously just my opinion as these lines are selling like hotcakes, but here's what I have to say about that...

    Well, we should have one voice against the outbound I don't like them for the sound. I do like them, but not for the sound. With a steep beach behind, and a long leader for surface work you're talking ALOT of line in the air behind you that you need to keep up to not break a hook. I've pretty much converted to 26 to 28 foot heads (primarily clear intermediate with a 6 to 9 foot leader depending on the weight of the fly. 10 to 12 foot leader for poppers on a floater) for all my sound work. One quick roll, pick it up, one backcast, shoot it out. We're not talking dries to rising trout and delicate presentations. If you're making more than 2 backcasts you're wasting your time and every backcast increases the chance to hook a hunk of rope, a tree (fish the narrows at high tide much?), break a hook, etc. when you're throwing 48 to 52 feet (including a long leader for surface work) behind you. Honestly answer the question "how many backcasts am I making before each delivery?" If the answer is more than 2, a longer line will only worsen the situation. I see guys doing 4 to 5 backcasts all the time. Sometimes more.
     
  13. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    How about coho? :thumb:

    I jest, but I'm also serious. Are those ocean coho as willing to swim to the surface as SRC? In trout fishing, I've learned that its a very rare case when a fish would rather swim up to grab something than to reach down and grab it. But then again, snagging bottom sucks...
     
  14. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,668
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    137
    Location:
    .
    Yes, but we're not talking the surface, with no countdown we're talking top 2 feet, in water that often is 4 to 6 feet deep. Boaters may have a different opinion, but I'm po' white trash, and I does walkin' fishin'. The "fish swimming up" thing is kind of a myth in my experience in saltwater and stillwater. I've snorkled in salt and fresh watching fish take naturals and artificials. "Swimming up" doesn't come into play as a problem unless fish are working a tight circular pattern working some kind of suspended prey, like a tight bait ball below the surface, and even then they won't all be working the same depth. If fish are cruising and they spot something in the distance in stillwater or saltwater, they aren't nailed down to a particular depth as they might be in a river where they are bucking a current to remain relatively stationary. To a cruising fish, forward, up, down, doesn't really matter unless you are talking thermoclines, extreme currents, or something like algae where there is a dissinsentive to change depth. There are of course exceptions when a school who isn't particularly on the feed is cruising breaks or contours, but "knocking them on the nose" won't necessarily break one out of formation either then. But the only difference in my techniques between src and salmon, pink or coho is counting down. I rarely find the need to do so with SRC. With salmon I almost always do varying constantly trying to find that sweet spot.

    Once again this is my experience. Your's may be different. And I'm sure boaters up here find alot of uses for quicker sinking lines. I always have in boat fishing.
     
  15. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    Thanks so much for the detailed response, as I'm buying this set up specifically for coho, it looks like I'll be counting down also. For SRC, I have a 5wt set up. I guess (and again corrections to my guesses are welcome) what it comes down to is am I willing to snag bottom a few times in shallow water, to be able to get down deep quicker in the deep stuff... decisions decisions...
     
  16. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    2,668
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    137
    Location:
    .
    Have you searched for "coho line"? I'm sure there are threads aplenty. And I'm sure, especially with beach guys you'll find intermediate rules. And if there isn't a good thread already, why not start one. After all this is a line matching thread right here. Not a coho line thread:p
     
  17. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    :thumb:I think two threads on what line to buy is enough for me... for now.
     
  18. snbrundage

    snbrundage Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    seattle, wa
    Philster,

    If you were following Jrlyman's previous thread you would see that I know exactly how much weight that would put on his six weight, and hopefully break the ...!

    By the way Philster, your comments on the disadvantages of the longer specialty heads are spot on, the most eloquent and articulate I have read or heard. I do not think of myself as a good catcher of fish, nevertheless, I seldom false cast unless there is fast current and I need to greatly realign and that increases the time the fly is in the water. It has been a long time since I've used heads of less than thirty feet. I seem to remember that some of the heavy stuff that required lengths of less than twenty feet were a bitch. For the last while I have simply used the taylor mades of thirty feet. So, how do the 26 and 28 feet lines work? For instance, a 26 foot floating head. Please say more about that.

    My sense is that selling an outbound to a beginner is tatamount to giving a twelve guage to a 12 year old. But, you know, Jrlyman's curiosity is his greatest virtue and it may serve him for years. If I can get this casting down I may start to catch fish.

    steve
     
  19. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    4,100
    Media:
    100
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA.

    Word. iagree

    jrylyman, why do you think poppers attract src and coho? Why floating lines can be very effective? And, notice the eyes of the fish are on the tops of their head; they're looking up, and forward. Presenting the fly below a fish is much less productive than presenting the lure/fly being above the fish . . .

    Trout routinely move up to the surface to feed, or why would we need dry flies? Sure, in rivers trout derive much of their feed subsurface, but a lot of that is because most of their food is subsurface.
     
  20. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2008
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Sammamish, WA
    I'd like to defend my status as not a beginner, I'm really more of a beginning to be intermediate fly-fisher. :thumb: I'm just new to this Salty water, and new to this state. I've fished for fish in rivers and lakes from Mexico to AK on a fly rod for about 3 years, (not a long time, but I fish frequently). I've caught every (major) species of trout, in every size from 2" to 2 feet. I've worn out a pair of waders and the soles of my boots. My casting hand has had bouts with carpal tunnel, and I've nearly busted a knuckle on my left hand from a running sockeye. I've hooked myself more times than I care to mention (luckily not on a cast yet...). I definitely don't consider myself an expert. Can I say that again? I definitely am no expert. But I'd like to consider myself slightly beyond beginner, even if its only stoking my ego and fooling no one:cool:.
    I know I have a lot to learn, and I can't wait.

    Oh ya and I was shooting a 12 gauge at pheasants when I was 12:D...
     

Share This Page