Up one line? Two?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Jake L, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    But for the record, you guys are selling me on an intermediate... Airflo 40+ fast int. 7wt? Sounds good. Probably will work just fine.
     
  2. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    I am confused... So your anti-Les comments were sarcasm? If I recognized that I wouldn't have been so short. I didn't follow the other thread, but his curiosity seems to be well balanced with open mindedness and a positive attitude, but maybe that's only in this thread?:p. If you are saying you think the 6 wt is too light for coho I agree. But sometimes economics come into it, and one has to use the heaviest rod one has. I wouldn't condemn someone for that and wish broken gear on them, but I would urge them to to step up at the first opportunity.

    As to the outbound being a bad choice for a beginer, I would disagree in terms of weight, but agree in terms of length. I've taught hundreds to cast and I think that a shooting head type line (overweighting by 2 or 3 aftma weights depending on the rod) is one of the best things to put in the hands of a beginner to get them to understand the concept of loading a rod. I often start out the most hardheaded folks who won't stop that speedy jerky falsecasting with a head stretched out on the grass in front of them, and make them do one sidearm back cast, wait to feel the load, and then a good forward cast and release. I've cured many "Artistic" casters that way when they see that forward cast carry 70 feet or more when they couldn't cast 40 before that.

    As to line length I find that the denser the line the shorter I can get away with. I lean towards 27-28 feet with floaters and intermediates, and down to 25 to 26 feet for serious sinkers. You can go shorter, as you go much under 30 feet they all start flying like bricks, but as you already discovered as you go shoter and shorter, at some point especially with the less dense lines you start losing distance. You will get more carry with a dense heavy line and a light mono running line, but it is fundamentally true that when a fly line finishes unrolling the flight is over, and I don't care if you're steve Rajeff and release that cast the millisecond that forward loop forms, that clouser is going to duck back under your line before hitting the water and you'll be stripping 8 or 10 times with absolutely NO contact with your fly! We all have to find the point of balance that works with our casting, but I'm willing to bet that if you grab a 30 foot head that is one size heavier than you normally use, and chop 2 to 3 feet off it, unless you pride yourself on the artisitic aspect of your casting, you won't be sacrificing much. I grew up in the SF Bay Area, and this old stuff down on the coastal rivers like the Gualala, Navarro, and the Russian.

    See this is why I don't watch shows like lost where there's a developing story. I'm not going to catch every episode, and I have no idea what's going on...
     
  3. snbrundage

    snbrundage Member

    Philster

    I made no anti Les comments, quite the contrary. Les advised the man to get into shooting heads. He started a new thread and said that due to excellent advice on the previous thread he would go to the outbound route. I thought he did not heed Les's advice. Nor did he heed my advice pointing out the difficulties involved in the outbound, pissing me off! That is why I advised him to not seek Les's further advice. Had I been more clear I would have said that it is not wise to make Les surlier than he is. But that would have been too revealng of my own personality.

    In the earlier thread I contrasted the advantage, disadvantage, of a heavier weight head against a lighter head, and pointed to the problems of the extra length (which I also see as the biggest problem.)

    Thanks for the comments on head weight. I too have experienced the beginners amazement at shooting out eighty feet in fifteen minutes. (Disclaimer, I have taught other things, but I do not teach fly rodding.) And more importantly, thanks for the comments on head length. I count that important and will experiment with cutting it down a bit.

    I also said that I appreciate Jrlymans curiosity. I should add that I appreciate his imagination
    because if he can imagine it he can learn it.

    Jrlyman, keep it coming.

    sb
     
  4. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Glad you're not too bitter about me deciding on the integrated head. :thumb: I think you'll be glad to know that I have been swayed yet again towards the airflo 40+ because it is more similar to a standard shooting head its shorter than the outbound, only 30ft head. It seems like it is a good compromise between the simplicity of an all in one system, and an "old school" shooting head. It'll be an intermediate sink, because the ability to throw a popper on it occasionally (not as well as on floating I know, limited to quick retrieve/swing, whatever I'll make it work) has sold me.

    Thanks for all your help, and for the record I've read Les' books, and taken a lot more of his advise than I've turned down. And I'm pretty certain a lot of it I haven't taken to heart will be stuff I'll likely learn the hard way.

    As for being able to cast the shooting head, I am confident that I will be able to learn how. I am a completely self taught caster, and therefore have learned this much more slowly than many. But the first time I picked up a rod I was sending out thirty feet within five minutes, not great but functional enough to fish.

    Again, thanks all, I'll keep you updated on my learning experiences.
     
  5. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Ah. Without knowing the background "I can't recommend Les Johnson for more advice on this matter" sounds like "Les doesn't know crap about about this stuff":rofl: I see now...
     
  6. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

    OK...two question WRT this thread:

    1) What are the advantage and disadvantages of going up a line or two? My impression from this and other threads is that with the OB you might want to go up a line if you have a slower action rod. What would it be like if you went up a line with a fast action rod? Would it cast just fine but just put excessive stress on the rod? Please explain.

    2) Do most fly shops have a good return policy? For example, if I want to try going up a weight and end up not liking the line, will they usually take it back if returned within a week or so?
     
  7. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Typically Outbounds are between 2.5 to 3.5 sizes overweight, however fitting that weight into a longer head changes the way it interacts with the rod, so it doesn't "feel" as heavy as a 30 foot line of the same weight would feel. So an 8 weight would weigh the same as an 11 wt 30 foot shooting head (about) but the extra length slows everything down a bit and keeps it from feeling as overloaded.

    I wouldn't overline with an outbound. A slower full flexing rod would require less load than a faster rod. Take a super slow and soft 6 wt. cast a 4 wt line on it. If you can cast well and control your loop, you can throw 2 inch tall v loops off that rod and it's perfect for the forks of the snoqualmie and tight quarter fishing, but you'll never get great distance out of it. Put the six back on and you got u shaped soft slow deliveries. Take a super fast 6 and do the same thing, and you'll get that same tight loop control, but for most of us alot less distance. Because you are loading the rod even less. Most of the energy going into the cast is coming from your arm motions, and little of it is being stored and "shot" from the rod. I would try a lighter Outbound on the soft rod first.

    As to returns. I never took back lines that someone spooled up and used. Your relationship with your shop may be different. But at $75 a line, I doubt it.
     
  8. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide

    Interesting discussion here, and I hope I'm learning something I can put to use.

    I have a love/hate relationship with my 6wt Clear Intermediate Rio Outbound line. I'm tossing it with my 9' TFO Signature Series 1 6wt and it just doesn't seem right. That may be due to my lousy casting and my needing more practice refining my shooting technique, and I'm working on that. But it almost seems that the line casts more easily using a cheap backup 9' 6 wt I have that has slower action.
    I found this out last week when I setup my reel with the Outbound on the ElCheapo rod for a 2nd rod while my TFO had a reel with a clear int. sinktip on it. The ElCheapo rod semed to load up better than the TFO with the Outbound line.
    Then I accidentally snapped the running line when a gust of wind blew a loop of slack around my rod butt (I was fishing for searun cutts from my U-12, standing up in it in the middle of the river) just as i gave a good strip to get some more line off the reel during a backcast.:eek: Lucky thing I felt it pop and didn't shoot the line!:beathead:One cutthroat was safe from harrassment for a little while longer!
    It broke about 9 feet back from where it had previously broken and I had it spliced onto the head. Now I'm going to have to remove the 9 foot section of running line, and resplice the rest of it to the head again. I won't even miss the 9 feet. :beathead:

    On another subject, I'm thimkin of splicing 25 feet of T-14 onto some Amnesia for my 8 wt for fishing deep. Kind of heavy, but sounds like I don't want to go any shorter than 25' head length. Izzat about right? I already have the T-14 and Amnesia, so I might as well put 'em together.
     
  9. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

    Jim,
    Start out with 30' and cut it back one foot at a time until you find the sweet spot for your rod. Each rod of course is different. Just my opinion, but I'd bet with T-14 the shortest you'd likely want to go with an 8 wt would be 28'.
    Good luck,
    Brian
     
  10. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

  11. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Does anyone really 'know' the Outbound head grain weights? I've heard something substantially smaller in number than what you've thrown out.

    I have a Airflo 40+ with a floater head, and it ain't 2.5 to 3.5 sizes overweight. If it were, it would really manhandle my SP, and it doesn't.
     
  12. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

  13. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

    iagree
    My weekend experience mimics almost all of the above shortcomings - even broke a hook on a small clouser (?) -- must've hit the rocks on the beach....thot I heard a "pop" back there...????

    That said, I'm pretty sure the main faults lie with my casting technique (or lack thereof) rather than the line - possible also line weight/rod combo. Seems like most of the talk on this thread is more about "overlining" for better results tho the opposite was recommended to me at the beach.

    Possible scenario:
    1.) Since I can't rip 37.5 + 9' Ox leader & 2' 1x tippet off the water into a roll cast - especially with a weighted clouser 2-4 feet underwater - I have to strip line in to about 15-20 feet (+ leader & tippet) before I can get a "crumpled up roll cast" out in front to start the backcast. Because there is a varying amount of slack line in the water from the roll cast, the first backcast is generally what I would call, "incoherent", meaning in simpler terms, crappy! Now I need a good "coherent" forward cast to begin straightning out the mess in back of me. If I'm successful on this forward cast, I then have the beginnings of a "decent" backcast. Now I'm already up to three (3) "false" casts, not counting the roll cast from the water - back, haul, forward, haul, back, haul.....and now with a perfectly executed and timed forward cast and haul (that causes my line hand to smash into my Orvis stripping basket), about 30-35 feet of line goes smoking out of the rod tip and lands, "kersploosh" 50-55 feet somewhere in front of me - 'cud be either right or left of "front" but at least it's usually in front somewhere!:hmmm: I know it was good because I've got 15-20' of running line out + plus the roll cast line & leader, blah,blah, also.

    I few times I actually stumbled into the right timing and coordination and it was the most effortless, easy, painless, farthest casting ever - but not often even tho I kept trying to recreate that feeling of effortless-ness when it all just comes together.....:beer2:

    For me, when it works it requires no effort, no muscle, no grunting and no cussin', just a nice smooth, easy rythym...gawd, if I could just do that every time????:rolleyes:

    Jcnewbie (...gotta get back to work now)
     
  14. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    It's dangerous to comment without seeing you cast, but it's probably safe to say that a heavily loaded slow action rod is going to be very forgiving in terms of the "good" window in regards to casting timing. think of it as if there's a bell curve that measures casting timing with the ultimate cast at the center. A very narrow band in the middle of that curve is "perfect", not too early, not too late, just a little leeway to either side of perfectly loaded and timed. I know when I hit that zone because I usally say "whoa" and my cast just sails. It's not a common occurence:p the next zone is great. Just a little early or late resulting in a little less efficiency, and you still send a cast soaring with great loop formation. Then there's good, where most intermediate fishers live. You're not right on, but your casts are within 5 or 10 feet of what you would consider a really good cast, you aren't tailing or tangling your leader very often, and your loop isn't a tight V, but it's not 5 foot tall either. It's a good solid fishing cast you'd feel good about nailing all day long.

    The problem is that curve is a different shape for every rod, and that fast rod's "good" window, is going to be about the size of the slow rods "great" window. Not exactly of course, but work with the analogy :rolleyes: The demands on the caster for near equal performance are going to be higher with a very fast rod. Almost everybody who isn't a great caster, especially with a shooting head style line, will do better with a more middle of the road rod. An XP is easier for most people to cast great with than a TCR even though the TCR could be considered a "better casting rod". For steelheading with long casts and swinging flies I wouldn't mind a demanding rod. If I'm standing up banging the banks with a bugger from a boat with a thousand casts for hours on end, my casting will start to suck as I get tired. I want a less demanding rod for that style of fishing.

    Now some folks will just toss a heavier line on that fast rod to "open up" the good or great window. The problem is you have to be pretty knowledgeable to be able to ascertain if you are also affecting the way the rod unloads and killing the performance to the point that you might as well be using an ugly stick. It's a tough call, but with a line like an outbound, where you're already loading it up, it's usually not the answer.
     
  15. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater


    A couple of things that might help.
    A shorter leader. I haven't found coho to be leader shy. On the Airflo 40 + I'm using, it has a clear tip. I not sure if the OB is clear also. I like to use a 6-7 foot leader. I don't think you need a 11' leader on an intermediate, especially casting a clouser.
    Also, you can just build your own leader. Maxima UG is what works well for me.

    Try to cast your line using a minimum number of false casts. I like to use one or two water hauls max to load it, then shoot it. It may take a few trips to get it dialed in and find the sweet spot with your rod.
     
  16. Mr.E

    Mr.E He called me an Elitist ?? LOL ..what a moron


    Richard, since the original poster is asking about his 6 WT. I just spooled on a RIO IST on my 6 wt. Casting it is a dream on my 9'6" rod.

    Spec on the box: Rio WF6F 240gr (16gms) floating cold water
     
  17. Josh Smestad

    Josh Smestad aka Mtnwkr

    I've been throwing a 8wt 40+ Int. on a 7wt TFO Ticr and it feels overlined. Could I just cut it back a few feet or would I run into problems?


     
  18. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

    MtnWkr,
    Jim was asking about a shooting head, not one of the integrated shooting head lines.
    I would think the 40 + would match up well with your TiCR.
    I can't recall anyone mentioning cutting back their intergrated head lines, but I guess that is always a possibility.
    I'm sure others will chime on question and give you their opinions.
     
  19. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

    Yes, the OB is clear -- for 37.5 feet when the running line starts.

    So, you're saying, I don't need a 9' Ox tapered leader plus 2' of 1x tippet? Just use 6-7 feet of Maxima 8-10 lb? What is Maxima UG...oh never mind, it just dawned on me, duhhh....Ultra Green I betcha' !!:) I can hardly wait to try it!!

    Do you think it's NOT a good idea to have 40-50' of line, leader/tippet on the backcast and just "shoot line" on the "final" forward cast. On a good solid backcast I will usually try to haul and slip about 5 or 6 feet of line and then shoot about 15-20 feet on the forward cast. When you start doing the math, (even under ideal conditions) by the time of your second (false) backcast you've got a whole bunch of line out (I can't do the math!) and a whole bunch of "beach" in the way too....not to mention a very rapidly deteriorating loopola behindja':eek:!

    Should I attempt to "shoot" 50-60 feet of line only on the final foward cast then? And nothing on the backcast - maybe just a single haul - forward? Or two single hauls forward and "shoot" 25 feet forward each time?

    Not trying to be a pain here - just trying to make sense out of all the different ways, ya know?:)

    I have so far to go.....:beathead:

    jcnewbie
     
  20. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

    Trust me, if this forum found excessive question asking painful, I would have been driven out with pitchforks a few months ago. Just be sure to never ask the forbidden w's. Where? What? ... there's a third one somewhere...

    I'm pretty sure that you should shoot it all in one go. I'll let you know more for sure on wednesday after I've tried it out myself:D. I'm going with the 7wt fast intermediate Airflo 40+. Should work well enough for me.