Up one line? Two?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Jake L, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Richard, if you are sure about my Redington RS4 10'er being better with the 8wt, let me know. I have not loaded it yet and likely would be able to swap it at the shop.

    If anyone else wishes to chime in, feel free. Today I'm feeling like moldable clay.
     
  2. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Jake,

    Boy do I know that feeling – casting like a World Class Champion (?) on the grass – then getting to the beach and can only get 60 feet max.!!

    On Sunday at Narrows Park Beach, had quite a bit of wind coming straight down the beach from my right side (strong side) to deal with and could only get 45-60 feet at best and got myself tangled in line, poppers & clousers – even a rod hit a couple of times with the clouser, ouch! - due to the wind! Tried all different angles, back cast into the wind, forward cast into the wind, 90 degrees to the wind, 45 degrees downwind etc. etc.. Even managed to sink the popper hook into the brim of my very large brimmed hat and got it back out with no damage due to the barbless hook, wheeew!

    You know the wind is a problem when you cast straight out from the beach with the wind coming from your right and before the line unrolls on a “strong haul”, the popper is already 50 feet to the left before it even hits the water!! Also, when you are watching the backcast and the line is blown completely out of your line of vision behind ya, gots a problem too!

    Honestly, the wind didn’t seem that strong until you try to cast in it – so after a couple of hours dealing with that, I again committed the ultimate blasphemy and switched to spinning gear and buzz-bombs after getting smacked in the shoulder by a clouser - until the tide was out far enough that my “back cast” wouldn’t hook a kid or dog or log or tree! I was lobbing the buzz-bomb out there 150 feet with the wind taking another 50 feet of mono into a looong belly before I could get the line into the water!

    I stuck it out until about 4:00 pm (slack tide) and all the “salad” in the water was too time consuming and my back finally gave out……’course the wind died out then too!

    All in all, it was not an “ego-boosting” casting day although certainly educational….3 other fly fishermen were not faring any better than I was!

    jcnewbie
     
  3. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Interesting! I was thinking about this very thing after reading all this talk about "versa-tips", "intergrated shooting heads", "WF shooting head floating lines" et. etc. and thinking, hmmm?....Maybe I should get me one of them "versa-tip" thingies so I'd have all the possiblities covered without having to carry 3-4 different reels/spools down to the water every time!

    Then I took a look at the sizes of the last 4 or 5 guides on my new 6 wt GL3, especially the tip guide, and thot, "Boy, that doesn't look near big enough to get double looped line through there very easily!" Then I took another look at the other guides and they're all quite small as well....so decided to read 'n learn more before making the decision. Glad I did as you have just pointed out that particular drawback.

    Upon further analysis however, I do not strip line in to the leader connection because that forces too many "false casts" to get the line back out to "shooting length" so I prefer (at this point in my short casting career) to strip line in to about 15-20' plus leader, roll-cast then start my backcast, blahblahblah! Aren't "most" "change-a-tip" lines configured to about 15-20' in length? If so, that might work okay for me since I don't strip in line past that point anyhow so the small guides wouldn't be a "casting impediment" (?)! Any additional advice on this, ladies & gents?

    Great opinions & advice on this site, wow!:thumb:

    jcnewbie:)
     
  4. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    JC, how much line is out when you land your fish? I have a few of the multi-tips on several setups and when I bring a fish in normally I bring that loop connection into the rod tip and guides to be able to reach the fish to land and/or release them. It might not be a factor on each cast, as I tend to do the same as you and keep the tips out of the guides for casting, but landing a fish is a bit different. I've heard some complain about losing fish as the loops rattle or pin on guides. I have not had that experience, maybe because I don't catch enough fish yet.
     
  5. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Oh geeez, Mumbles, don't know why you had to ask THAT question, "How much line is out when you land your fish?" What fish?...would have to be my honest answer! I have yet to land a salmon, steelhead or anything larger than a 9" cuttie (and that was with my 3 wt)

    Seriously tho, that is a good point about stripping in line with a fish on - hadn't even thot of that - more thinkin' to do.....:hmmm??:confused:

    More answers always breed more questions, eh?

    Thanks,

    Jc:D
     
  6. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    If you are using an outbound, or an airflo sized as Richard is advocating, or a normally oversized shooting, regardless of length, I'm betting you are doing one, two, or all of the following things "wrong". "Wrong" is in quotes because there is more than one way to skin a cat, but without knowing the "approved" way, it's pretty hard to come up with an individual style that works. I'm proof that you can though. I have jacked up shoulders on both sides from a misspent youth. I can't perform three identical false casts to save my life. My shoulder will lock or pop a little, and throw the cast off track, so instead I focus on what makes the rod work, and by concentrating on making that happen I cast very well indeed when I'm on my game. But years of teaching others has taught me that you need to understand what makes the rod work, and the best way to teach someone that is to teach them the fundamentals.

    #1. You do not want lots of line speed on the backcast. This is where slipping line on the backcast is bad if you do more than foot or so FOR MOST PEOPLE. Really good casters can handle it, but for most folks with these lines, a Belgian type cast, circular, off to the side a little and nice and slow will get you all the loading you need. A tight v loop on the backcast, expecially with a weighted fly is counterproductive FOR MOST PEOPLE. A bonus of the Belgian cast is even though the line is traveling slowly it can be easier to watch your backcast and keep from hitting things, or the water, behind you.

    #2. Forcing the forward cast. I like a nice long full extension, very slow, with a good acceleration to a solid stop at the end. Some like a nice tight short compact smooth acceleration to a solid stop at the end. In both cases the key is smooth acceleration to a solid stop. As with all casting you don't want to cast "harder". There should be no grunt on the delivery. In fact just slowing down you should gain 5 to 10 feet as long as you have a good stop.

    #3. This is probably the most important. The set up. Ideally you would want to begin your backcast with the head fully out of the guides, the head and leader straight in front of you, on the surface, with your arm as close to fully extended as is comfortable, and your tip top as close to touching the water as possible. If you are rocked forward a little all the better, but it's not necessary. This is where I don't like these long lines as much as shorter lines. If you started every backcast like this, you would never need more than one backcast with these lines, and even a lame forward cast would consistently break your 70 foot wall for you. Why do you think grass casting a head is so easy? With your line extended in front of you, rod tip low, even without a water load, the deck is stacked in your favor. It's why I like short heads. No matter how deep I am, I can, with one roll, get everything out in front, rod extended, tip low practically everytime. By the time your rod is at the 10 o'clock position on your backast, that bad boy is fully loaded, and all you have to do is get your rod in the firing position. I you start your backcast at 10:00 as many I see do after 3 or 4 rolls to get things on top, it's a whole different story.

    I tried to avoid brain pain inducing concepts this time:beathead:
     
  7. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    I know your reply wasn't directed to me specifically...hope you don't mind too much if I butt in little, sir!

    Excellent advice Philster! But you failed utterly in "avoiding brain pain inducing concepts..." hehe, just kidding!; all you say is pretty much as I have been taught by several different casting instuctors in the last few months - all different but basically the same!

    One of them, Don Simonsen (I think) at Orvis explained about 3/4's of the way through his seminar, "most instructors that have been teaching "advanced fly casting" have eliminated that phase and only teach "basic, fundemental casting" because 99% of their students are not really "advanced casters" at all, they just think they are "advanced" because they've been "fly fishing" for 25, 30 or more years! Turns out they've forgotten all the fundementals and need to go back to "square one" again! I found that to be a very interesting bit of truth tucked away into a very informative seminar!

    This still one of my main "problem areas" in that I cannot seem to get a nice straight, tidy roll cast laid out on the water and have to "sacrifice" the first backcast to get the line all straightned out. 99% of the time it all just "accordions" or zig-zags making a slack-free pick and hence, "loading the rod" impossible until you end the backcast and start the forward cast. Often, because the rods energy is not being transferred to the line (too much slack) at the start of the backcast, the backcast is clumsy & sloppy and thusly must be straightned & tiddied up on the forward cast - I'm sure you see where this is heading....but I don't wanna hi-jack anymore of your thread without your explicit consent!

    jc:)
     
  8. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

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    Wow! Am ever guilt of doing things "wrong"...especially with respect to overpowering both the fore and back casts. I've been using both the OB intermediate and floating dependent mostly upon the tide and whether I want to use surface flies, so consider that for the following.

    A few questions to clarify on the "approved" technique:

    1. If I do a false or roll cast or two to get the head out, do I then a) let the line touch down on the water striaght in front of me with rod tip low, b) bring it up to 10:00, c) pause to load the rod, d) shoot with acceleration, and then e) hard stop?
    2. At what position do I make the hard stop?
    3. Do I still follow the line as it falls after making the hard stop?
    4. I assume you double haul, correct?
     
  9. Denny

    Denny Active Member

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    Don really knows his stuff. He loves, loves, loves the art and science of casting and teaching it to people; each time I listen to him he changes up his lesson plan and approach, always for the better. Some folks don't always appreciate his ultra serious drill sargent teaching approach, but to him fly casting is serious stuff. I'm glad you found his seminar informative.

    I haven't seen you cast or know of your casting skill level, but you mentioned once before that you are self-taught. There's nothing wrong with being a self-taught caster, but often a person schooled in this manner will miss or not be aware of some fundamentals that are important. That's awesome that it appears you want to advance your casting skills. Good for you (as long as you actually listen, learn, and apply some of those lessons - grin).
     
  10. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

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    JC, I think you will find over time that the GL3 guides are much bigger than the average size. I have Sage, Rainshadow, and Scott to compare with and the GL3 guides are about 25% bigger than all of these other models I have on hand at the house.
     
  11. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    JC,
    Coho fishing is a numbers game. The more casts you make, the more likely you are to get into fish. Not every cast will be perfect. No big deal, try to make the next one better. If you spend most of your beach time concentrating on your casting, your fishing is likely to suffer.
    Remember, there are a ton of coho caught each year within 60 feet of the beach.

    I wish I had a buck for every cast I knew was going to suck, but I still shoot it anyway. I'd be a rich dude by now. :D
    On to the next cast..........

    Jake,
    Don't cut your line back after only one trip with it. No reason to mess with a new line before you get it dialed in for your rod. You mentioned it feels slightly heavy, it should.
     
  12. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    ...no, no, I think you are referring to jrlym, Richard! I'm only self-taught in the sense that I had to practice (wrongly) for a long time before I found someone to teach me some of the basics. Over the course of the last year or so I've had several instructors, all with a different approach and learned from each of them. Three were only "freebie" hour long sessions, like the one's at Orvis. I've "paid" for several one hour to 4 hour sessions also and continually try to remember all they've taught....sometimes it "takes" & sometimes it doesn't!!

    I think much of the problem lies in my overly-analytical nature and this likely tends to "muddy-up" things in actual practice....I want every cast to be text-book-perfect and then over-compensate when it ain't....sighhh!

    Oh, ever notice how nobody is ever looking when you make a "perfect missle launch cast" and are looking when you muck it up real bad?

    Dang-it all, if'n ah wuz trewly sef tot, ahd hav a gud 'scuse fur bean suh lowzy!

    Thanks for the feedback, amigo :thumb:

    JC:D
     
  13. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Are you kidding me? :eek: The tip guide on my GL3 us only about 3 times the diameter of the OB line!!:confused:

    Now I will hafta see if four line diameters will clear it - double line loops = 4 line diameters, right?...more or less, right? Hmmm....please correct me if wrong here :confused:...not that you ever would of course, hehe!:D

    JC:)
     
  14. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    First of all it's not my thread:p

    Yup. Your instructor is right. The difference in my mind between a true intermediate caster and an advanced caster is that the advanced caster has moved past being rooted in the mechanics to cast well, and understands what is going on with the rod and the line. However you can never get past being rooted if you never fully master the fundamental mechanics. You also need to never loose sight of the fundamentals, and constantly practice them. If you ever see a Monet sketch you'll see that he was masterful with a pencil, and had total control of it as a tool. His painting style was what he wanted to do. he could have easily done photo-realistic work if he wanted.

    As to the roll cast bit, check out some of Simon Gawesworth's stuff on spey casting. His way of teaching the roll cast, specifically where the line needs to be anchored in relation to your casting position is spot on. You can probably scan it quickly at a book store and get what you need to improve significantly almost immediately. I would also recommend looking into learning variation of the spey cast known as the "perry poke" or "Snap-T" depending on the direction and amount of current you're working with as a means of setting up your line. If you KNOW you aren't going to be able to roll it up in less than three tries, why bother? Why not try something else? I use the snap T a ton on the sound.

    Lastly, go out and borrow a shooting head setup. I honestly consider the longer integrated lines "intermediate" lines. Yet if we're honest are we all intermediate casters? Learn the fundamental skills you need to work these intermediate lines with a shorter, easier to handle head. ditch the topwater long leader stuff for 3 months and focus on your skills with the shorter head while actually improving your catch ratio due to the "wet fly principal". The more your fly is actually fishing the more fish you'll catch;)
     
  15. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Wow. Those are big ones. Answering these is dangerous because the answer is prone to being misinterpreted.

    1. definitely let the line kiss the water. don't stop at 10. What I was trying to say is that if you start with straight line, water tension, and a low rod tip, by 10 o'clock your rod will be loaded. Still bring it back to your normal launch position. The trick is for heavy flies if you wait until the line is ALMOST straight behind you, right before it starts falling, you add much less shock to your line when you begin your forward cast contributing to a smooth cast and distance. Just slow down everything and watch your backcast and everything will go better.

    2. That's a personal thing. I use an old style long stroke shooting head cast for my single hand rods. My rod might stop at 2 o'clock after my wrist pop, I'm leaning on my front foot, and my arm is horizontal and fully extended! But that stroke is relaxed and slower than you can imagine except for the wrist pop at the very end! I can count "one thousand one" calmly during my forward stroke. But that's me. Use YOUR stroke. Just concentrate on your fundamentals and being smooth and relaxed. Don't change your forward stroke other than to back off on the power.

    3. Hard to describe in words. After your loop has formed and your cast is sailing, as long as you don't introduce slack in the line you can do pretty much whatever you want. I do flatten out the rod when things are on their way out to reduce some friction on the running line. Heavy heads don't require the "tending" a normal line does in flight. They'll take care of themselves as long as you don't introduce slack.

    4. Yes with a single hand rod. a very short sharp tug timed with the wrist pop. 3, 4 inches. Again keep it short and fast. Long and fast will introduce shock and will actually change the path of the rod tip giving you tailing loops and worse, possibly a rod strike with your clouser:eek:
     
  16. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

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    Just to make sure I wasn't misleading you I went out to the garage to double check. All four of my other 8 wts I have will fit through the 8wt GL3 rod guide at the same spot without touching, as will my 10wt XP. I didnt turn or coax anything to monkey it through either.

    That GL3 is about 9 months old.
     
  17. Denny

    Denny Active Member

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    You be right; I be thinkin' of jrlyman.

    My apologies, mate!

    Funny thing about the not having anyone looking when you make a good cast; my good buddy Steve is an excellent caster, and when we're fishing out of my boat often during the course of the day I'll hear him remark "Nice cast, Steve!". They usually are . . . ;)
     
  18. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    I believe snake guides are better for loop to loop line transfer than single guides. Many salt water fly fisherman prefer snakes too. It's an individual taste.
     
  19. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

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    JC, don't worry about high-jacking the thread. It keeps going and growing well. One of the first 4 pager's I've seen that didn't involve disputes ending in someone being kicked out.

    So I'll be heading out and using a ton of the tips I've picked up from this "highjacked" thread. I haven't cut the line yet Stonefish, I'm definitely waiting until I know for sure.

    I have one quick questions for Philster or Richard or whoever feels like they have an answer.

    One of my biggest problems is catching rocks on my backcast. With a wf line I could cast up-er and keep the line higher behind me. When I try to do so with this 40+, it doesn't like going up as high, and then it seems to either fall REALLY fast, or when I power slightly early to avoid that, it whips down and into the beach in a trailing loop. Any tricks or tips to keeping that line high behind me? Or will it just come with practice?
     
  20. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    jake, it will come with practice, but try speeding up the line on the back cast with your haul pull. Make sure to stop your rod tight at one' o'clock or desired stop point...don't drift the rod on the back cast. Speed, and in this case line speed, is an ally.
     

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