Up one line? Two?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Jake L, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Steven Green

    Steven Green Hood Canal Pirate

    Aim your loop a little farther up on the back cast. Not too much though, that will create more problems than it solves.
     
  2. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    That's what I love about casting. This is the exact opposite of what I do and it works for you. :thumb: I drift waiting for the backcast loop to straighten for a smoother forward cast.
     
  3. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

    Philster, I just got back from the beach. I didn't have the chance to read your responses to my questions before hand but I did try to adhere to your earlier suggestions. I started by chucking out the head and then doing one long/slow water haul followed by the launch. It was really awkward at first but after 10 minutes or so I was getting it out there about 70 feet...striping in til the head was at the rod tip and then repeating. I was a little dissappointed because I wasn't getting it out any further than before...so I went back to false casting until I had the head was out and launching without any water haul but focusing on a lower rod tip on the final backcast....HOLY CRAP! I don't know how but when I was trying to adhere to your suggestions I somehow got much better timing down. I loaded the rod waaaayyyyyyyy better and was suddently busting out 80 foot casts consistently! After doing that for a bit I let the line slap the water on the forward cast for a quick water haul and boom...85-90 feet!!! All I've heard about timing and slowing things down and getting the rod to do all the work finally came together. I owe you and the others on the board big time! I'm a self taught rookie and yet this board has helped me improve light years. Oh yeah, almost forgot...missed one fish and lost a second at my feet.
     
  4. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Cool! Like I said a few posts ago, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for me may be the exact opposite of what works for someone else, BUT there are certain fundamentals that are hard to escape from and still cast well. How you work those into your style, is really irrelevant. All that matters is that you find a way to make it work consistently and as effort free as possible!
     
  5. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    A shooting head kicks ass for learning to cast because the timing never changes once you get the entire head out past the tip. It is also great once you have good timing because you can throw them an incredible distance with only that one back cast.

    I didn't take the time to read every reply in here but I do a roll cast to lift the sink tip up to the surface and to make it so my back haul is 180 degrees from where I am going to shoot the line.

    Having everything working in the same plane adds distance.
     
  6. Porter

    Porter Active Member

    I can relate. I do the same in many situatitions, I will pull harder, slip a little line and let the line straighten out on the back cast and let the rod tip drift back...when wanting a far cast....but I was kinda giving what I thought would be an easier step to helping the casting situation...and maintaining loop control....You know the stuff, and you are more on top of it than me, I will not argue with you. :beer2:
     
  7. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

    Posted by Jake:
    That's why I switched to a beach with logs, dogs & kids.....'jus kidding :D!!

    JC:)
     
  8. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Change the slope or your backcast so it directs more up than you typically do, and also stop higher. You're not alone in hitting the rocks on the beach. If you your backcast is 'flat' behind you, it doesn't much line out before the clouser is getting its eyes dinged off on the rocks.

    This malady isn't unique to beach fishing. Go lake fishing and watch how many folks 'tick' the water with their backcast. Almost all. If they changed the slope of their backcast and stopped higher, problem probably fixed (probably because there could be other casting issues contributing to the ticking).

    Don't cast your line. Shoot it. Don't let a lot of line hang out the back. The line is pretty well marked as to how much line needs to be out for optimum performance.

    One other thing. I mentioned clousers earlier. Clousers, poppers, and other weighted or not very aerodynamic flies make casting a little more challenging. Obviously the weighted flies will want to drop more quickly (than non-weighted) on the backcast and will be more prone to dinging the beach; that's why it's even more important to elevate your cast and stop higher.

    Hope this makes sense. :thumb:
     
  9. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    You can steeple cast (almost straight up behind you) and still make about 60%-70% of your normal forward cast. You wont be able to lift a sink tip up from very deep with the steeple cast so a roll cast is almost a must prior to the steeple.
     
  10. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

    I'm such a newbie that I don't have any fishin' buddies and my boys are all "gear heads" and can't stand to have me around with my "elitist fly-fishing bullshit" :D!! I can think of no "funner" thing than landing a nice 10-12 lb steelie, silver, king or whatever right next next to 'em someday.....:rofl:!

    Boy, I'd sure like to hear that "Great cast JC" sometime, but reckon I'll just hafta' do it my ownself :rofl::D!!

    ...although I did mutter something like that when casting on the "grass" awhile back...:thumb:

    JC:)
     
  11. nb_ken

    nb_ken Member

    This thread kinda got away from me a couple of days ago and I just now finished reading the whole thing. (Slow day at work.) Great thread.

    I've got a couple of questions for you more-experienced shooting headers. Most of you seem to use a roll cast to get the line to the top and a water haul to load the rod with the head outside the guides. That's a technique that had never occurred to me.

    Are you only stripping in the running line? I tend to fish all the way to my feet. That is, I strip in the full head, all the way to the leader. Then, a couple of false casts to get the head back outside the guides, a big double haul, then shoot the running line. I don't false-cast with the running line, but I do fish with the head. Seems kind of a waste of 35'+ of cast to pick up as soon as the head gets inside the guides. Am I misunderstanding something?

    Another comment. Seems like most of you like to get the full head, plus a couple of feet of running line outside the guides on your final shooting stroke. Personally, I don't like any running line outside the guides. I like to make my final load on the shooting stroke with the last 3-4 feet of the head inside the tiptop. I'm sure we can chalk this up to personal preference, but I notice a bit of a hinge effect when I've got running line outside the guides. Seems like every time this happens, I loose a bit of my load.

    Again, great thread.
     
  12. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

    NB,
    I fish the whole line, stripping in the head also. Here is how I cast my line, a Airflo 40+ which has a 35' head.
    After the cast, I do a quick roll cast. This generally will get about half the head out the rod tip, so say 15'. Next I'll do a water haul to get the rest of the head out of the rod tip. Now the line is straight and ready to shoot. So basically, I'm doing one roll cast, one water haul then shooting the line. Picking the entire head up off the water and shooting it after the water haul is really easy.
    The Airflo line has a black mark where the head connects to the running line. You can also feel a 'thump" as the end of the head exits the rod tip. Basically, I've got both a visual (black mark) and feel (thump) that tells me when I'm ready to shot the line. I like to have the head outside the rod tip, with a max of two feet or so. Shooting the line with some of the head not outside the rod tip decreases my distance.
    With this line, I try to avoid making a bunch of false cast. The water haul works for me and my casting style.
    I'm sure you'll get other opinions on how folks like to cast these lines.......
     
  13. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    I will generally strip in the head, but not the sink tip.
     
  14. nb_ken

    nb_ken Member

    On my Outbound, the head is the sink tip -- 37.5 feet. Just bought a 40+ floater from Herl this weekend and tried it out for the first time last night. I think the head on that one is 35'. I do like the black thump thing. You don't get the tactile thump with the Outbound, but the head is a different color than the running line. Early results say I'm casting 5-10' farther with the Airflo than I am with the Rio, but I don't have a large enough statistical sample to make any categorical conclusions.

    So the roll cast + water haul is to get the head out rather than to put a full load on the final backcast? I'll give that a try. I can generally do that with 2 false casts though, so we're back to preference and style.
     
  15. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

    My bad, I meant 35' on the head.
     
  16. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    I do the roll to a haul specifically to take stress off of my body.. Lifting a sink tip 5,6,7, or 8 feet out of the water takes quite a bit more effort than a roll cast. Then the second the sink tip slaps the water I go back into my haul so it is like casting a dry line up on the surface.
     
  17. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Stonefish speaks big medicine! iagreeiagreeiagree I, too, will strip in much of the head because I've had a lot of fish follow in the fly and take in close!

    Absolutely great description, by someone who knows his stuff and catches lots of fish from the beach! You should see him effortlessly BIG casts! He is absolutely giddy about his new line, and after watching him cast, I don't blame him.
     
  18. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member


    Since I'm self taught often many of my casts slap the water. I have become much better at not slapping when seeking spooky fish in quite water. I will catalog Jeremy's comment though. The next time I'm literally beating the water with my line and doing my water haul I'll tell everyone that Jeremy Floyd taught me that trick to "save my body". I ain't getting any younger, I should opt to save as much as I can. Thanks for the tip Jeremy.
     
  19. Go Fish

    Go Fish Language, its a virus

    Great info on casting...

    I think of casting a fly line to fine art...

    Thats why I fingerpaint.

    David
     
  20. Philster

    Philster Active Member

    Well, this is all just theory based on MY experience and MY casting style. With a WF line, you can can throw a faster tighter looped backcast and "rush" the forward cast, starting your forward cast before the line finishes unrolling on the backcast. As long as the line hasn't finished unrolling, it remains at the same height and doesn't drop. Now with a weighted fly you will get a little "whiplash" when your forward cast energy hits the fly, and the fly will kick downward at the terminus of your backcast when you rush the forward but it's not a huge problem.

    I find heavier heads don't like alot of line speed on the backcast resulting in a slower backcast that's harder to keep up. I also find they don't like to be "rushed" and prefer to unroll before your forward cast. Higher backcast speeds and rushing the forward cast really degrade your forward cast performance with these lines in MY experience. I think if you are in touch with your casting you can't help but adjust to these line characteristics unconsciously. "when I do this it doesn't work, when I do that it does work" type stuff where your muscle memory kicks in. So a lower line speed, and waiting for the line to unroll (and therefor "die") is a good recipe for hitting the rocks.

    The good news is that with a Belgian cast, you are basically slowing down your line around a huge arc but as long as it's unrolling it doesn't want to drop too much, and because of the lower line speed and huge arc you can "rush" the forward cast without much impact on the forward cast because the path of the fly through the end of the backcast is not herky jerky affair, it's a nice smooth path. So you end up with a cast that stays up alot better. Low line speed on the back, but it resists dropping pretty well, and you can start your forward early, maintaining the energy from the live line. The bad part is that you can't do a Belgian cast in crowded "salmon" conditions...