Upon Switch...

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by KEM, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. KEM Member

    Posts: 93
    Twisp, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Your so gay
  2. ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

    Posts: 3,207
    Eagle River, Alaska
    Ratings: +112 / 0
    wow I want clients like that!
  3. LBC nymphing beads with a spey pole.

    Posts: 251
    Ratings: +9 / 0
    So what did you go with? I know you were tossing around like 7 different options... wondering what your starting point will be so I can borrow the line for a test drive on my rod.
  4. SPEYBUM Member

    Posts: 271
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Winston BXII 7110 with a S.A. Single hand Spey line 360 grains @23 ft. and 10 ft of T-8.

    River Run Anglers will be hoisting a Day on The River with Winston and SA this coming Saturday 23 Feb 08 if you would like to cast this combination and see what you think.
  5. TrevorH Active Member

    Posts: 428
    Bellingham, WA, US.
    Ratings: +32 / 0
    Speybum- I've spoken with a couple people who were playing with the sa single handers and the airflo compact skagits who were indicating to me that they were getting better distance with the compact lines than the standard skagit lines. My impression was that they were also pushing the load a bit higher as they went to a shorter line. The thought of making a 100' spey cast with the Winston BIIX 11', certainly has peaked my interest in what these lines are like. I'm wondering if you have worked with Bob's 11'7" Highlander with any of these lines. If so, what lines did you like, what total grains.
  6. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,554
    Quesnel, BC
    Ratings: +318 / 0
    We had to unload the B2X a tiny bit to get it to cast farther. It doesn't like (in my opinion) being overloaded and we used a few less grains to get the performance out of the rod with our very compact shooting head.

    80 foot spey casts are really no problem and fall into the effortless category.

    100 foot ones are pushing my personal limits with the B2x, but hey, I am no spey master I just fish. They are completely within the realm of possibilities and Mike Dickson makes them happen easily and consistently.
  7. TrevorH Active Member

    Posts: 428
    Bellingham, WA, US.
    Ratings: +32 / 0
    I owned the rod for a few years, just sold it. 80'-85' was about the end of my range. That was with the fastest 10' poly leaders' & modestly sized flies on a cut Airflo 40+ 9wt with slick shooter. Fun rod, but I quit fishing it when I got my 5120 & Meiz 11'7". They are just more capable for the two-handed approach.
  8. SPEYBUM Member

    Posts: 271
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Let us look at the 100’ Speycast with a 11 ft Switch rod.

    I always try to fit the taper of line with rod taper and do not want to over stress the rod or collapse the rod and take the tip out of plane.
    If your tip is out of plane it will cause the rod to dome the cast (in other word the tip is to flat instead of being in line with the rod shaft).

    Let first look at what a Switch rod is and why we call a switch rod.
    The birth of the Switch rod came from the idea of a rod that one could both double hand cast and single hand cast,
    These rods are at home both doing the overhead casting and speycasting.
    With the overhead casting a normal single hand we can us the double haul to increase the line speed to gain the distance we need. But with the double hand casting overhead or Spey we have no way to double haul with in reason.

    In my Advance Casting Studies Team Workshops we spend a lot time understanding the Backcast Stroke and Forward Cast as it applies to the Speycast compared to the Overhead Cast with a double-handed rod.
    In order to gain the speed we have to get distance efficient with out back cast.

    For the sake of convince let say stay with the Speycast back cast stroke or cycle and the forward casting stroke.
    I divide the back cast stroke into Front Side, Power Application, Back Side and the Drift to Key position, The Front Side (FS) of the backcast stroke is basically an alignment of the anchor path and adjusts for the angle of power application.
    The Power Application (Pa) is how much and how long do we apply power.
    Drifting up and backward basically makes the Back Side of the Backcast Stroke (BSBS).Drift to Key Position (DKP) this is done by moving the rod tip in a power off drift up and toward the caster.

    Now let us figure out why we are doing this.
    We need to lengthen the casting stroke to get the line speed and load the rod deeper with out over loading it.
    We have to hold tension the on the anchor leg of the D-loop through all of the back cast movement paying close attention to the rod tip movements at the end of the application of power.
    If we drift back and up in the BSBS we will pull up on the top leg of the D-loop and start to bury the anchor leg of the D-loop.
    Now as we drift to the Key Position (the Key Position is where we start the forward cast from) by raising the rod tip up again this time to a more vertical position. This will again put more tension on the top leg of D-Loop causing the anchor to dig event deeper.

    Key Position to the Forward Stop or the forward cast.
    Down Out and Over
    How do we make a forward cast most effectively using a shorter rod?
    We have to load the rod from the butt to the tip and unload it the same way.
    Starting by pulling down on the rod with the underhand we start to bend the rod at its butt.
    The downward pull on the rod butt lengths the strait line path of the rod tip and the angle will that we pull it out will give use the much need longer stroke to make the longer cast.
    We commence the forward cast stoke with lower hand starting to pull down and once the rod starts out away from the caster we move the rod butt back toward the casters belly while to top hand force the rod out and over.
    Imagine trying to break the rod into between the upper and lower hands this will cause the rod to flex to it’s maximum with out folding and will keep the rod tip in a straight plain.
    I hope this is clear I am not much a writer.
  9. Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Posts: 2,554
    Quesnel, BC
    Ratings: +318 / 0

    I do a mini double haul on the forward stroke by only using either the palm of my hand (on shorter, less forceful casts) on the butt or by holding the line between my index and thumb and placing the last 1/2 inch of the rod into the hole that creates.

    To apply "glory cast" power with the lower hand I pull into my chest with only the inner part of my index finger touching the rod as soon as I see my D loop reach 180 degrees from my intended path (by actually watching it over my shoulder which is probably poor form too).

    I make the rod snap at the end of the forward stoke by physically bumping the rod butt forward and away from my chest (this is really subtle and it happens quickly which is why I call it a bump instead of a stop) with the inner part of my thumb and a split second later I throw my hand which still has the line in it past my hip which gives me another 16-20 inches of haul to accelerate the line while the tip continues it's snap. I can't do this nearly as well when I have waded in to my hips because I would be driving my hand underwater so I stop at mid thigh if I can at all help it. I still feel like I continue to power forward with my top hand for a tiny bit after the "bump".

    I am 99% sure this is unconventional and I have never seen anyone else doing it except for a couple clients who have gotten the hang of it after seeing it done. This is how my brain compensated for poor form which left my distance lacking when I was initially learning to single hand spey where I just double hauled with my off hand. Now after over a year of doing it with the I can really zing the line out there with a shooting head.

    I have also found that I can accelerate the shorter switch rods much more efficiently by having my upper hand fairly low on the cork which keeps my hands closer together and increases my tip speed with shorter hand movements (and lengthens my lever). This is also the reason I prefer the shorter 2 or 3 inch fighting butts as opposed to 5 or 6 inches of aluminum and cork behind the reel.

    I also raise the rod pretty high in relationship to my body to give me as much room as possible for the double haul. I have my lower hand almost shoulder high on my upper hand side.

    I am sure this is confusing because I read it a couple times and added some notes in brackets.
  10. SPEYBUM Member

    Posts: 271
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Jermoy good on You.
    What you call the bump was call a cast though or back pull, moving the rod butt out and way form the caster after the initial underhand pull of the butt toward the caster. This added more load rods when you need to add line speed at the end of a cast or to stabilize a stiff tipped rod. Mike Kinney and Al Buhr teaches this to most of his beginning students just as I do.
    As for moving your hands together if read Mike Maxwell book written in the 80’ s he advocates that as a way to stop top hand thrusting (or initiating the cast with the upper hand instead of lower). I advocate this especially when teaching under hand casting on short bellies.
    The watching your cast develop is great: I teach casting visually first, timing and tempo second and feeling as the last thing .
    I have been double hauling on single hand Speycasts for years. Speycasting: A New Technique by Hugh Falkus (Hardcover - Nov 21 1994 goes into great depth on the subject of single hand Speycasting and is good source for anyone.
    I have been working on getting my left hand single spey cast with a double haul and not having the best to times. Old dog and new tricks but I will get it.

    You are doing just fine.
  11. KEM Member

    Posts: 93
    Twisp, WA
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    I got the 27' skagit 350gr. shooting head. I seems to put it out there pretty darn good, still trying to get the hang of it. However, I think I need to cut back my floating tip from 15' to 12'-13' feet or so. I'm reaching lengths of up to 60' now (previously about 40') but it is getting there.
  12. bankwalker Member

    Posts: 387
    Ratings: +7 / 0

    yeah im in the process of learning to cast with one.

    i got to cast one at the creek side anglers spey classes and loved it. but mine rainshadow is nowhere near as easy to cast as that setup was.

    but they are fun to cast
  13. TrevorH Active Member

    Posts: 428
    Bellingham, WA, US.
    Ratings: +32 / 0

    Another option is the xtra-super fast poly leaders. I weighed a 10' in at 80grs (8gr/ft). I also really like the Airflo custom cut material. It sinks like a rock and is 10gr/ft. The airflo material seems to go down about as fast as t-14, it just comes back up a bit quicker. I tend to like shorter tips on shorter lines & rods, especially with skagit casts. I fished the Methow with 6-8' of the Airflo material, shorter with larger flies, longer with smaller flies, so the amount of stick stayed a little more consistent. That is a great rod for the Methow.
  14. longstick Member

    Posts: 280
    North West
    Ratings: +0 / 0
    Skagit 350 grn with 15' 109 grn sink tips cut back to 13'. I also like the 375 grn outbound.