NFR WDFW gets it right- Wolves part trois

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by ribka, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Apparently the guy owning the house in Avery, ID (Hwy 50 along the St. Joe) felt this way. He had a rather large, professionally made banner on his fence that spoke about the grey aliens from Canada...and that he shoots them on sight. It sure seems that pack had been up to some no good.
     
  2. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    I know quite a few ranchers and they pay to lease public resource and in return they grow healthy organic -free range beef.Yes they do receive govt subsidies and tax write offs.

    Interesting that fly guides use a public resource (rivers) put a lot of stress on endangered native steelhead and trout and pay zero fees ( unlike the ranchers) to use the public resource. Like ranchers they make profits off of a public resource. And they do receive govt welfare in the form of tax write offs.

    Perhaps guides should start paying a yearly usage fee for every public river where they guide like a rancher does for his leased land. Time to pay your fair share guides like the ranchers.

    Same guys that demonize the ranchers on here support the fly guides

    Nothing against fly guides and have guided myself in other states.






     
  3. triploidjunkie

    triploidjunkie Active Member

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    Great!! Now hopefully they'll start on the other packs, at least push the invasive(non-native) wolf back into Canada.
     
  4. jessejames

    jessejames Flyslinger

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    Wolves don't pay attention to international borders these wolves have and will continue to roam in this area. The WDFW is already planning on what to do when the next pack wanders across the border, No visa required.
    jesse
     
  5. scottybs

    scottybs Active Member

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    Not to get TOO political here, but ELIMINATE ALL tax write-offs and simplify the tax code!
     
  6. obiwankanobi

    obiwankanobi Active Member

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    I saw that sign yesterday too...I have to generally agree with this sentiment as well. There were many decals in St Maries that had the wolf in the rifle scope image on the back of their windows or bumpers.

    Many small town economies are driven by logging and ranching so wolves impose a threat to these communities. Its easy now for government agencies to not allow logging in many areas that are now considered endangered wolf habitat. Its easy to see how many that reside in these towns take the actions needed to eliminate this threat in a more vigilante type of nature.
     
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  7. Irafly

    Irafly Active Member

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    If we do end up allowing people to hunt the wolves in order to stimulate the economy, I sure hope they do the same for criminals, I mean why would we pay a professional to do a job that so many people would do for free. I'm sure that wouldn't back fire at all.
     
  8. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    I think that approach is the model being tested in Chicago...the city with the most stringent gun controls.
     
  9. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    I'll include your recommendation when I pay for my commercial license, required by the State to (legally) guide. Think it'll work?

     
  10. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    $250 for a guide license to guide on every piece of public water in the state?

    My neighbor pays over $2000 a year to lease land to run cattle. And he can only run cattle on that piece of land.


    Ranchers I guess need to pay their fair share.

    I have nothing against guides but to come on here and attack ranchers and farmers as welfare queens and not address other groups who use public resources, put a strain on the resources to make profits and pay pay very little to do so seems disingenuous to say the least.

     
  11. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    No schit
     
  12. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    I guess it is all about choices. We all make them and they affect what we pay, earn and save.
     
  13. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    The difference is your neighbor uses the public resource, fattens up their livestock, renders them, and then sells them at market. Likely, receiving subsidies or tax breaks/rebates that are in addition to the revenue gained.

    You are implying that guides would need to pay more of a fair share but not enjoy the same benefit; that benefit being using the State's water, bugs, sunshine, etc. to fatten the fish, then keep the fish and sell them at market. It's only in this scenario that the two activities are anywhere close to being similar, and then to that point what you're describing extractive, commercial guiding. Where the State expects those that pay fees to do so (read hatchery fish) and benefit, perhaps you have an argument. However, to lump guiding activity into one bucket (extractive) is inappropriate and gets us no closer to a solution.

    As I've said before, my fees to guide increased nearly 100% this year over last, with no observed change in habitat, enforcement, etc. Just think about how much money was spent (is still being spent) to fight fires on public lands that in the end, will benefit livestock grazers with new growth of grasses, etc. that is being spent on their behalf exclusively, being among the very few user groups that are allowed to use public lands for a fee and leave it with less than it started with. I am not anti-rancher, and never have been. You are making an argument that all guides are the same as ranchers and it's simply not true.

    There's only one user group that's allowed to do that (take fish and sell them) and I'm afraid we've already had that discussion.


     
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  14. ribka

    ribka Active Member

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    OK I'll go there

    Most likely be banned because you sponsor this site

    My friend /neighbors cattle ranchers have to pay for fire suppression in my area if a fire strikes. More disinformation (lies) on your behalf.

    Their leased land serves as a wintering area for deer and elk in the off season.

    Derick DO you have pay thousands of dollars if your guiding area burns or is destroyed by floods?

    The ranchers in my area do. What do you have to pay out of pocket if the rivers you are guiding are destroyed ?

    I would think zero dollars


    How many people have you fed through your 1 per cent c & r fly fishing ? Can the average person afford $400 a day for a guided c&R fly fishing in this economy?

    My neighbor runs over 200 head of beef. I imagine he feeds quite a few people with very healthy organic free range beef and has a zero carbon foot print.

    He receives govt handouts like you do


    What do you pay a year to exploit public resources ?

    You have lectured in the past about global warming and carbon usage

    What is the carbon footprint of your business derick?

    Do your clients ride bikes or walk to utilize your business?

    How does targeting a very stressed and endangered resource in your line of work help the environment?

    Do you support a lottery system for guiding to limit the amount of predation and over use by guides in the state of Washington?

    I know MT and ID has already Implented this lottery system in highly sensitive river systems in their environs.

     
  15. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Ever consider starting a conversation to discuss such specifics? I would. Just an option since you seem to think being banned is a possible outcome.
     
  16. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    how carbon neutral cows get to market

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. generic

    generic Active Member

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    Uh..., do you actually know the main reason for what you saw in St Maries? I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with the logging and cattle. I know several families that live in St Maries. There was an incident that happened in someones back yard, right next to the high school. I can't seem to find the article online, (but it was in the local paper), grandkids were playing in the back yard, while 3 wolves were spotted scoping out the situation. Two of the three wolves were shot shortly after the kids left.

    The reason there probably hasn't been any documented wolf attacks, is because they haven't been around much (if at all) until lately. We do have documented mountain lion attacks, and bear attacks. Why should we be surprised if a wolf attacked a little kid?
     
  18. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    I Love beef and have nothing against cattle ranchers I just do not agree that they are getting the shaft if wild animals eat some of their livestock. I am all for raising beef I am not for bitching about the cost of doing business. ( loss of animals due to wildlife is a cost of doing business) We, as a nation irradiated the wolves for the sake of ranchers . We through the best devices available to us are trying to make up for that MISTAKE. Ranchers got the benefit of wolf free forests in the past , now however ranchers have to pay the price for us to have wolves. There is NOTHING wrong with that , they are just going to pass it on to the rest of us anyway. SO the rancher really isn't paying for it anyway.. If wolves really become a problem then the price of beef will go up it's that simple.

    Again i am all for eating and raising beef.. Just blaming everything on wolves is absolutely silly and I for one get sick of hearing it...

    Wolves have been an absolute BOOM to the beaver population in Yellowstone park since their reintroduction..

    It's not all about ranching and hunting...
     
  19. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

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    I'd invite you along for a day on the river with me, but you are making this personal and it's not. But I'll entertain your questions, despite the fact that you didn't answer mine, and be done with it.

    1. You'll only be banned because you are angry and you attack people.
    2. I pay for your neighbors fire suppression too. Not a lie.
    3. If the water I guide on is burned or destroyed by floods, we all lose more than money. Oh and that happens.
    4. I feed my family and the families in my communities through my business. What's your point?
    5. People have priorities about how they spend their money. Why is this your problem?
    6. I don't receive government handouts.
    7. I don't exploit public resources.
    8. I am not Al Gore.
    9. Please send my lecture fees to my personal address, I've been waiting for those.
    10. If my guiding was on stressed and threatened resources, I wouldn't be doing it. It's called ethics.

    And 11. I support efforts to improve habitat, spend my money on wild and native fish organizations, and serve on a Watershed Forum that works to do the same.

    You need to be more specific when you talk about "predation" and "explotation" among guides. Go ahead, say the names of those you think act in that manner. Because I don't.

    If I were to follow the ranchers lead, I'd be asking the Government to kill or suppress all the Osprey, Hawks, Eagles, Merganzers, who are predators on the river. Shall I start that thread, or do you want to?

    All you've shown is that you have a personal dislike of guides and think we're out to harm the resource, not to act as stewards. You obviously have no idea.

    My name is Derek, care to share yours in a public forum? Or are you going to hide behind a screen name?







     
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  20. wa_desert_rat

    wa_desert_rat Active Member

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    But he is the only person who can run cattle on that land... it is, for all intents and purposes, his. In fact lots of them begin to think that it really is theirs and try to keep everyone out. Maybe some guides would like to keep all the other fishing guides (and fishermen) out but, at least in WA, they can't do that.

    And $2k a year is the selling price of two heifers at auction. Per year.

    This site ( http://farm.ewg.org/foia.php ) is interesting reading. It shows direct farm subsidies paid to individual farmers by name and location. Look up your neighbor. You might be surprised at how much money he gets from the government.

    Craig