WDFW will not release 'early winter' hatchery steelhead this spring unless legal issues are resolved

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Andrew Lawrence, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    My observation is that the feds prefer to think that the ESA takes precedence, but the US Constitution describes treaties as the supreme law of the land. And treaty tribes don't hesitate to point that out. Based on how the gov't has acted, a reasonable conclusion is that the gov't doesn't have the cojones to go to the mat on the issue, and will make a policy decision that mutually exclusive outcomes are possible.

    Sg
     
  2. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    i get why the government does not want to tangle with the tribes, but imo the worst thing is to have unsettled law and management trying to interpret ideas not codified into law. whether it is being on the hook for hatchery plants or foregone opportunity, we deserve to have these things be settled so we can manage with certainty, even if that certainty ends up sucking and being bad for wild fish.
     
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  3. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    It's not as simple as ESA v treaty rights. Both the federal govt and the tribes are obliged to follow federal law. That is, they are both required to comply with the esa. The neither the state nor the feds owe the tribes fish, they owe the tribes just compensation, when there is an infringment on their treaty reserved rights.

    So, if the compensation that either is providing is in violation of fed law, it is likey that a court would order the parties to agree on a legal form of compensation. Or the court might enjoin and order remidiation the action that is harming fish, as was the case w/wsdot culverts.
     
  4. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    then the steelhead of Puget Sound will go away because of the greed of the tribes that is to say the greed of the tribal commercial fishermen, not the greed of the tribal members themselves, just the ones who rape the Puget Sound and it's rivers with nets in such a way their ancestors would have taken them out behind the tee pee and scalped them. ok not the tee pee but the longhouse.
     
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  5. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    It sounds like you know little to nothing about the tribes in the Skagit area. They are truly co-managers in every sense and should serve as a model on how the relationship should work between tribal fishermen and their rights and how the WDFW manages.
     
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  6. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    James, that is precisely why I attempted to make a distinction between tribal members and tribal commercial fishermen. I have no doubt that there are tribal members that truly love the fish as a species and want them to survive into the future even if another one is never harvested...

    My point is simple and maybe too blunt for some. If you put a gillnet in a river that has a species of fish that is not doing well you do not love or respect them. end of story, it does not matter how you feel about them or what you say to other people about them. if you would by a willful action contribute to their decline and possible extinction they you do not care.

    as an example tribal fishermen on the Hoh river in no way care about the future of Hoh river steelhead. the action of putting a gillnet into that river is proof that you do not care. if you put a net in the Hoh river while it is not meeting it's escapement goals then you are an exploiter and nothing else. you are not valuing your culture or heritage you are not being a co manager you are not being a good steward. you are being a person contributing to the decline of the stock for financial gain.

    now feel free to tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

    I think some tribal elders need to step up to the plate and give their commercial fishermen a whooping.
     
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  7. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    Rob,
    You are making generalizations. In many cases you are flat out wrong
    What the hoh tribe does doesn't make other tribes' gill netting objectionable. The attitudes of tribal fishermen differ both from member to member and from tribe to tribe.

    You should educate yourself, qualify your statements, and/or limit your comments to something you can speak intelegently about.
     
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  8. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Huge difference between the tribes in PS and from the coast. And no, commercial and non-commercial cannot be separated. You should really call some of the PS the tribes at some point and see what their total harvest goals are when the rivers meet escapement. You'll probably be really surprised. In fact, in one case, the PS tribes literally had the stars align, exceeded their expected take and apologized for something that really wasn't their fault.

    Knowing how salmon and steelhead work means that gillnets are acceptable, but under certain conditions. Saying that they are irresponsible is both incorrect and does nothing to further the actual cause of conservation.
     
  9. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    We said the same thing about the Muckelshoot's and Puyallup tribes. Not that they did not work with WDFW and the sportsman clubs, but when you get down to brass tacks, treaty rights and allocations rule the day.
     
  10. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    I am not generalizing I am saying that without any exception every person tribal or otherwise who harvests a wild steelhead in a location where they are not doing well by definition does not care about the future of the race. killing one on purpose is the opposite of caring about the future of the stock.

    I am saying that it is impossible to care about the future of wild steelhead and intentionally harvest one. if you choose to harvest one you do not care end of story.
     
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  11. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    gillnets are NOT acceptable no way no how.

    allowable harvest of wild steelhead should be 0. harvesting wild steelhead is the opposite of caring about them.
     
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  12. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    I would go as far as to say anyone who puts a gillnet on a wild steelhead river HATES wild steelhead.. Again it's not how you feel that matters, it's not what you say that matters it's what you do that matters. harvesting wild steelhead = hate of wild steelhead.

    it is my intent to use every words in these post emphatically. my position is very simple and universal the location matters not.

    harvesting a wild steelhead is to hate wild steelhead.

    you can call me radical if you want but our un-radical solutions to wild steelhead problems has done no good at all..

    treaty fishing rights sure harvest all the hatchery fish you want.

    ohh and all the habitat work they do? totally negated by harvest.

    for instance the tribes has done a fair amount of work on the John Day.. then turn around and kill 40% of the Wind rivers wild steelhead.. Yes they hate wild steelhead.
     
  13. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    C&R however is OK, because there is an acceptable level of incidental kill and this is far outweighed by fulfilling one's personal need to hook a fish...one on the threatened species list.

    Careful Rob. Sing out of tune too often and you might get shunned by the choir. rofl1.gif
     
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  14. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    Have you met finluver or freestoneangler yet? You guys should go on a date.
     
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  15. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    I see your ignore button is once again on the fritz.... here's a replacement. ;)
    ignore.jpg
     
  16. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    I have been singing out of tune my whole life...

    Just tired of B.S. causing us to lose more and more fish runs.... everything but 0 harvest is B.S.

    My wife is a Oglala Sioux. Native Americans have gotten the shaft at every turn in American history.
    we have forced them to accept our culture, part of that culture we have forced on them is harvesting natural resources for profit.
     
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  17. Chris Johnson

    Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

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    Rob, what if they don't believe they are harming the run? The Hoh just barely missed the escapement goal, maybe they think that is sustainable. Do they still hate steelhead? The world isn't that black and white Bro, stop and think for a minute.
     
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  18. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    You're generalizing. I've put gillnets on wild steelhead. I can assure you that I do not hate them.

    You also don't understand fisheries management. You are making an emotional argument that doesn't recognize legitimate differences in cultural norms.

    We all get it. You think it is fundamentally abhorrent to harvest a wild steelhead. And that's fine. But, it's not an opinion that will do anything to help puget sound steelhead.

    If you want to get mad about something get mad about forest practices, get mad about lax land use restrictions, get pissed off when someone doesn't mitigate for their bulkhead. Get mad about your county's barrier culverts, get pissed off about your local stream's crappy b-ibi score.

    People need to stop fixating on harvest (in most cases) and start caring about problems that haven't been solved. Harvest is visible and ugly, but Iit doesn't deserve this level of outrage.
     
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  19. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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  20. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    I guess what i am saying is that professional fisheries managers in the state of Washington have less of a clue than I do!.. by what rationale do i say that??? hmm well their track record speaks for itself. Fisheries management in the state of Washington has been and is an unmitigated failure. Why? because we do not place high enough value on our wild fish.


    Yes harvest deserves the outrage.. just as the other things you mentioned.

    gonna leave this one alone now.. I have made my point. i do not retract a single word of it.
    I am sorry i am going to fixate on harvest , why? because nearly half the wild steelhead in one of my favorite rivers dies in a tribal commercial gilnet, a good portion of which rot away in the 70 degree water because the commercial gillnetters do not check their nets often enough.. Harvest is a huge dang issue.

    the Hoh only gets close to escapement because they keep lowering the goal.
     
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