WDFW will not release 'early winter' hatchery steelhead this spring unless legal issues are resolved

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Andrew Lawrence, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. I forgot to add the sarcasm smiley to my post and apparently you were unable to recognize that. Oh well.

    I suffer from three terminal diseases all in a race to see which one will kill me first. I won't be around when you catch the last one but I will do what I can while I am here to help make sure one is left for you to catch.
  2. Rob, just when you start to make a little sense you type this comment:
    If you want to come off sounding like a zealot, that is your business. But do not expect to be taken seriously.

    Maybe I'm a little tired, I've only had one day off in the last three weeks, but it appears to me that you are NOT listening to two biologists in this very thread.

    I think part of the problem here is that your reference is the Washougal, while mine is the Skagit. Both Salmo and Curt have years of boots on the ground science up here on the Skagit/Sauk and...well...the escapement numbers speak for themselves.

    Earlier you posted something about sub sub sub basin management, (more zealot talk). Good luck with that! We can't even get them to do the paper work for a single basin management plan for the Skagit when we show up with scientific data, records, and scientists themselves giving the testimony!

    But maybe your tactic will work. Try showing up all wild eyed and talking about no fishing year round, (cause steelhead are present year round) even with 1000% escapement, sub sub sub basin management plans, and make sure to yell a lot while you're doing it - they like that.

    And while you are there, maybe you can get an answer from them where I couldn't. Not from the commissioners, the director, Jim Scott, Bob Turner at NOAA, the Upper Skagit Tribe, or anyone else connected to fish management in any capacity...How does not fishing the robust run on the Skagit help the other streams in Puget Sound recover? Simple question - nobody can answer it. Maybe you can take a crack at it.

    Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether you guys ever fish again. If that's what makes you happy, then don't fucking fish! Stay home and feel good, knock yourself out, burn your fishing shit and throw a NOT FISHING PARTY and invite all your friends.
    doublespey and jake-e-boy like this.

  3. i clearly said that i had no problem with a cnr fishery on the Skagit however the Skagit is not the only steelhead river on the planet not is it the only one in Washington state not the only one in Puget Sound Now can we take that one river out of the argument???... i would however oppose any catch and kill fishery on any river regardless of it's escapement.

    if we are not willing to save small creeks we are by definition not willing to save large rivers. you cannot separate the two...

    Some rivers can support catch and release fisheries however not all of them can. it's very easy to understand

    time to put this thread out of it's misery.... fighting over very small details does not accomplish anything for any of us...
  4. posting on this sub does not accomplish much either
    golfman44 likes this.
  5. Is this the right place for me to ask if nymphing for steelhead is a valid fishing technique?
    the_chemist likes this.
  6. Only if you use beads instead of splitshot.
    David Dalan and Lugan like this.
  7. I commend your efforts,there seems to be a lot of talk and very little action ,where steelhead are concerned !
  8. You get to decide what contribution or contradiction to add to a thread. Let those assigned decide when or if a thread gets put out of its misery. I so enjoy it when others imply, suggest or outright state what others should be doing. Much like this thread of doing things my way or not at all. Hilarious.
  9. a guy can't even make a suggestion that a debate be dropped in furtherance of unity on the board... great!

    no matter what I say half the board jumps down my throat...

  10. Ditching MSY and doubling escapement goals (which I think could only exist hand in hand) would indeed be cool.
  11. The sad reality for most of the Puget Sound steelhead populations increasing the escapement goals by at least a factor of two will not add a single wild fish to the populations. Why? The habitat needed to support that kind of increase population numbers just does not exist and is not likely to exist any time in the future.

    Remember those much hated winters escapement goals were established in 1984 and were based on the aggregate productivity seen in Puget Sound and North coastal rivers seen in the late 1970s and early 1980s; a period of above average marine survival. There is ample evidence that under the average marine survival seen over the last 35 years in the region those goals are above the carrying capacity in most cases thus not achievable. The major reason that PS wild winter steelhead abundances are a tiny fraction of the historic levels estimated to have existed 200 years ago is that is all the habitat we as a society left in our rivers to support wild steelhead.

    Keep in mind that steelhead spend an extend time (an average of at least 2 years) in those rivers as juveniles before smolting and heading to sea. Over the course of that freshwater rearing period the young steelhead require seasonally and at various sizes very specific kinds and quality of habitats to survive that period. Those complex and varied habitats are the very habitat features that 150 years of abuse has largely eliminated. The capacity of those rivers to produce steelhead is both determined and limited by those rivers to produce smolts (that is the amount of juvenile steelhead habitat in the basin).

    The tendency is for us to look at a system and think that if the river looks nice and the there is lots of good gravels that it must be able to produce steelhead. That rarely is the case; just one example. With that extend freshwater rearing period in the vast majority of cases the amount of spawning gravels has almost no bearing on the capacity of the river to produce steelhead smolt. Again using the Skagit as an example there is lots of potential spawning gravels in the basin and it has been estimated that gravel could support up to 50,000 spawners. Yet because the other habitat features are so limited that if one could magically put 50,000 steelhead on that gravel they would not produce more smolts (the ultimate test of the habitat productivity) than an escapement of 10,000 fish. Want more fish provide more that complex habitat features that those juvenile steelhead require to survive to become smolts.

    jwg likes this.
  12. Curt increasing escapement goals is more about putting expectation on human behavior in regards to the fish we have left and their habitat not the capability of our rivers in their current condition.

    The only things that humans can control is their behavior.. all the other factors are outside of our control. Humans have to modify their behavior if steelhead are to persist. If we are unwilling to change then all the money and effort we are spending to solve these problems and paying for people to study such things is a complete waste of time..

  13. #bringourfishback - my new instagram hash/activism. that will show them.
    jake-e-boy likes this.
  14. Freestone makes one post on a 2 month old thread and looks what happened.

    Dustin Chromers level of trolling
  15. Trolling...you kids and your cliché terms :rolleyes:. I was merely catching up after having been on travel, re-read the title of the thread, and made a simple statement about it.

  16. Rubbish.
    There you go...NOT listening again.
    Setting unrealistic goals will only succeed in keeping closed rivers, closed for longer. Those goals will not produce one more steelhead.

    Print it out, paste it up on your wall, and read it daily until it sinks in.

  17. then the fish are doomed and you better sell your gear now... even the people who care the most will not change their behavior how can we expect anyone else to and if no one does the fish are gone and there is no one to blame but ourselves...

    steelhead are more important than steelhead fishing...

    So what will increase wild steelhead numbers.. I have not heard anyone propose anything All i have heard is a bunch of whining about boooo hoooo my river's closed... The Skagit has more fish than all the rivers down here combined.. you guys are sitting pretty if you ask me... Sure our rivers are open,, there just aren't any fish... better closed river with fish than empty rivers that are open.
    freestoneangler likes this.
  18. Maybe we can agree on a few things and get something on the ballot for 2015. It might take an professional mediator.
  19. HELLO!!! Is this thing on?
    Go back and read what Curt has posted about habitat restoration and carrying capacity. He's mentioned it in just about every thread dealing with wild steehead.

    Everybody keeps asking the same question: What can we do, what can we do? Curt keeps giving the same answer - over...and over...and over...
  20. I predict WW will be the one.

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