What the heck! Pelletheads in Hosmer (rant) thoughts and a question

Discussion in 'Stillwater' started by bakerite, Jul 19, 2013.

  1. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,616
    Ratings: +631 / 2
    WOW so much to comment on!

    First over in eastern Oregon = thief is awesome for sure and it will fish good again next spring.

    Malheur is also a very good lake on the right years, give it 2 years and it should fish like mad. I liked it over thief because of less pressure and the rising rainbows on the mayfly hatch. I caught trout trying to push 6 pounds two years ago that were beautiful (fingerling planted) from oak springs hatchery in Central Oregon.

    Buelah = It was to dirty and low this early spring when I fished it and had to leave. the late summer drought took it's toll on all the lakes over east last year but this lake has native bows that are very big that spawn in the river and also bulls are native and get to 25 inches. the native bows grow to 8 pounds from what the bio told me! the stocked trout have not held over because it was drained almost every year from the late 90's trough the mid 2000's but the last 3 years they have kept it at 35% percent full because of bull trout studies that proved the bulls did better when water was left in the res. over winter for forage fish the bulls feed on. this res. should fish awesome with very large native (red-side lake trout that spawn in the river) and hold overs living 3 or more years. you are not supposed to target the bulls! I will spending some time next spring here for sure!!! THIS INFO COMES FROM THE ODFW WEBSITE on buelah res bull trout studies and even the hatches and trash fish the trout feed on. I also talked with the local BIO out of Ontario Oregon at least tree times this early spring on Beulah res.

    Unity res. has some big-big rainbows just does not fish that well with the normal fly fishing tactics and has to be fished early because of warm water. but If I lived in the area (Baker-La Grande) you would see me on these lakes all spring long - no reason to fish anywhere else if you ask me!

    What surprised me was most trout that are planted in these eastern Oregon lakes are oak-springs rainbows from Central Oregon which if they can hold over are very good rainbows growing big and deep! I had pics but had a computer crash and lost most of my pics from last season but reports of some 27 inch rainbows were report from some of my bait fishing friends from La Grande last spring.

    As far as triploids? well if there are native fish in a lake than that is the best choice to protect the native species as in the small native cutts or bows like at Crane.

    Davis is on the list to kill and restore! call Brett Hodgens the central Oregon bio for info!

    lava, little lava and many other lakes are now being planted with Crane diploids ! To not put strain on the native Cranebows they started using stock from the diploids from the native cranebows to get eggs from, they did this because the cranebow diploids live through the winters much better than all other stocks they were using when planting hard to hold over res. and lakes like crane prairie. they are using them now in many of the central Oregon lakes around the area. a better holding over fish that can survive for multiple years growing huge and deep - hard fighting line ripping tippet snapping AND rod braking fish!

    We, a couple other WFF members and I just fished with A fly shop owner from the area for one day that works and fishes with the local bio and found out a world of information about Central Oregon lakes and res. we also fished East lake and caught the blackwater rainbows along with browns and Atlantics and chubs.

    The Blackwater bows went to 17 and 18 inches I think was max, and they were just planted last year. the regulations are release of all non marked rainbows (blackwater) to help them live to the size to help the browns eat the chubs. next year this fishery is going to rock! in two years Crane and East being only about 40 miles apart are going to be a "MUST FISH" for every fly fisherman around! from dry fly browns to dry fly bows and Atlantics to indicators in 21 feet of water I was very impressed with the fishery!

    Crane Prairie went through changes and in two years should rock! they stopped planting diploids in 2010 because of fear of spawning with the natives and used other stocks since and the planted fish took a crash. when the guide said in 2009 he would catch 50 to 70 fish a day many going 4 to 7 pounds and hooking 2 or 3 a day over the 7 pound mark now it is mostly native fish which isn't bad but the numbers of fish are way down and could be why the Brook trout fishing was so good this year (reports better brook fishing than in 10 years)

    ODFW just this year planted fin clipped triploid cranebows back in crane. the hopes are they hold over and are not a threat to spawn with the native fish and crane returns to the epic fishery it was from 2000 to 2010. in two years it could be the line braking rod snapping fishery it's supposed to be. It was said the native bows just do not put on the weight as the diploids did, the added stocking brought back crane from the bass and stickleback
    but they had to stop the diploid stocking and used the normal stocking from Oak Springs and those fish just did not survive or hold over like the crane stock stocked fish being crane is a harder lake for trout to over winter.

    Now whats also amazing with crane is "NO MORE STICKLEBACKS" we never saw one and the damsels were everywhere. even the guide said they are gone and they don't know why but the damsels have returned and if the triploids live from this year in two years you better be there for some of the best rainbow fishing in the country for public waters!

    "PROOF"

    NATIVE CRANEBOWS DAMSELS AND BROOKS =
    WFF trip Crane prairie 006.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 004.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 012.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 015.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 021.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 026.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 027.jpg


    East lake blackwater bows and browns along with an Atlantic and fly caught koke and the mayfly hatch at east, notice the light under body of the adult! I caught browns, rainbows, and Atlantics all on dries and the same with indicator fishing with kokes added into the fun! next year East with the blackwater bows going to the 4 or 5 pound mark (should be at least that) will just plain rock for a very diverse fishery!

    WFF trip Crane prairie 032.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 033.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 039.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 044.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 046.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 047.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 035.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 038.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 036.jpg WFF trip Crane prairie 037.jpg

    As far as I'm concerned Oregon is on the right track!!! One of my friends also reported catching a 8 pound bow out of lava this spring - can you say "crane stock"
    aplTyler likes this.
  2. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    Mark, what's the story with Hosmer? What is the new management plan?

    Good new, BTW, in regards to Davis. Johnny Bass Seed can NOT be rewarded for illegally planting LMB in trout lakes and if nothing is done to remove his bass from Davis, the illegal planting will continue at more and more trout lakes. I heard the problem with killing the lake is the native population of bull trout. Is that a concern?
  3. bakerite Active Member

    Posts: 273
    Baker City Oregon
    Ratings: +74 / 0
    Looks like you had a great time Mark! Thanks for the comments and info on our fisheries. So when are they going to stock cranebows into Hosmer (instead of pelletheads!)
  4. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,616
    Ratings: +631 / 2
    We did not talk about Hosmer! I just don't care about that lake, I caught my Atlantic in the late 70's that was 22 inches and that was that! From another site the plastic boat hatch (canoe-kayak) is insane! and they row right over your line! the last report was that when a drift boater turned in to launch there were at least 50 plastic boats blocking the ramp laying on the road and ramp! No thanks on that it would be just like me to put it in 4 wheel and run them over!. as far as I'm concerned kill the whole thing and plant crane stock at least they are from the area! I don't care about Brooks and Atlantics although they do make some fisheries funner for numbers, I could just care less about them. It would be nice to find out what strain of bows they put in?????????????????????????????????? could of been crane diploids or triploids?????????????????? you wont see me complaining about that - but knowledge is key and I'm to lazy to look it up right now! It can be hard to go through all the studies and stuff from the ODFW site to find exactly what you need! I knew crane had changed and could not find out why and didn't even fish it last year and it is my favorite lake even though it can be hard it's the challenge I love.

    We did not talk much about Davis either, just that it was in line for killing and replanting for trout only which will probably be the crane stock I would imagine.

    I missed a couple takes while talking (indicator down) so became kinda quiet after that ---- HA!
  5. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,616
    Ratings: +631 / 2
    Bakerite, even if those fish are from Oak-springs those fish should hold over and grow for years! unless they have some other strain for just kill, those oak springs fish are the same as the thief and malhuer fish and I think you know those fish well ;) !
  6. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    As I understand it, the trout they first stocked in Davis were from Klammath Lake.

    I remember fishing Davis when there was not only steelhead size rainbow but also huge schools of mt whitefish. The whitefish disappeared before the LMB were illegally planted.

    Hosmer was such a beautiful lake and unique because of the Atlantics that I'll always miss the place. However, I too can't stand crowds when flyfishing and one reason I don't fish The D or The Met like I once did. The population explosion in Bend and Redmond certainly ran me off some of my favorite waters.
  7. Sinkline Active Member

    Posts: 57
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    Kraniger, mostly good accurate info. but a little off about Crane. Hodgson is still putting equal numbers of 2N & 3N Oak Springs in Crane. Hodgson has told that studies show there is no interbreeding between the native stock Cranebows & Oak Spring diploids (genetics are still considered pure), still trying to access which has best survival rate. Fall of '11 all the triploided Cranebows died at the hatchery. Fall of '12 no fingerlings were stocked as Hodgson's current strategy is to go back to Spring stocking of fingerlings. Spring of '13 some Cranebow 3N fingerlings went in, but survival of triploided Cranebows was way short of what was planned. Continuation of 2N & 3N Oak Springs went in as well.

    Because they didn't stock fingerlings in Fall of '12, Hodgson put in 5000-catchables (legals) this Spring to offset the lack of first year fish for the "meat hogs" while the transition back to Spring stocking takes hold.

    Hodgson is confident that going back to Spring fingerling stocking will improve the overall population of older class Rainbows. Time will tell. I hope he is correct.


    Randy
    GAT and Mark Kraniger like this.
  8. Drifter Active Member

    Posts: 1,616
    Ratings: +631 / 2
    Well from what we were told the spring creek hatchery fish do not over winter! So to me it doesn't matter if they are still stocking them. didn't help in the late 80's and 90's when bass took over for almost twenty years so why even spend the money on them. the guide was looking for hatchery fish and finally caught two 6 inch hatchery fish from the triploid stocking of crane stock this spring. well at 6 inches they are real hard to hook and all the other fish we landed were native cranebows. the diploid crane stock were the stock that helped the lake over the last 10 or so years from what I read and researched.

    As you can see by this years reports (and first hand catching by me) there are more brook trout this year than ever before! just read the ODFW REPORT from this spring on the lake! like the resort says best fishing for brooks in at least ten years.

    Well if numbers go down of one stock be it rainbows - brooks - bass - something will take over. like I discussed WITH the guide I believe the explosion of brooks is because of the down-fall of the crane stock, and whats next - "THE BASS TAKE BACK OVER" they better get the triploid program down of crane stock or the native fish will take another crash and invasive's will take back over. but all the bass fisherman will be jumping up and down with joy and start having fucking tournaments on the lake again! Like the guide pointed out the spring creek stock does not hold over well at all and it takes the crane stock to hold over and get large enough to take the food source over and keep it that way! I myself will pray for the TRIPLOID CRANEBOWS ALL SUMMER LONG.

    You mention Hodgons going to spring stocking, well as far as I know the diploid cranebows were raised longer to survive the bass and planted in the fall so they could not be fished over and grow to good size before the season started. I have only fished the lake for 4 years and didn't fish it at all last year because of high water and Knew something had changed the year before but they don't seem to make a lot of mistakes public on there website like all the triploids dying which the guide knew about and mentioned. Why mess with something that worked, raise the triploids longer and plant them in the fall!

    I was just thinking it'S like they do on the columbia and willy when they herd the fisherman! open the columbia up for sturgeon in one area - close it and open an area in the willy - close both and open the upper columbia above bonni - stop the program that brought back crane before having the replacement triploids down for stocking so there is a crash and than start netting East and bring in blackwater bows so everyone can leave crane and pack the camp grounds at East. for the amount they are charging for camp sites they could afford to a whole bunch of work with all these lakes and rivers in the area.

    I CALL IT HERDING THE CATTLE! AND YES WE ARE THE COWS!

    NEXT when EAST slows down or they quit stocking blackwater (10,000 is not enough by the way) they will poison davis and try and bring it back to what it used to be! hope theres a lot of grass around the camp ground at davis for us to feed on!

    hodgson is doing a much better job than that weiss or what ever his name was that called Davis his bass hatchery in the Bend paper years ago - thank god he's gone! and two thumbs up for Hodgons because I know he is at least trying.

    AND BY THE WAY WELCOME TO THE SITE, IT'S A GOOD ONE!!! we can actually chat about conservation and ODFW plans without being flamed by the gear chuckers! and to let you know i am formally fishcentral! We chatted on the other site but I can't hardly stand that site anymore - this one rocks!!!
  9. Sinkline Active Member

    Posts: 57
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    The biologist in charge back when the first illegally introduced bass was caught and made public was, Ted Fees. Ted told me, "Randy, don't worry about those bass the water is too cold and they will never populate" Unfortunately, we all know that isn't how it turned out. :-(

    Hodgson is convinced that the bass, pelicans, and commorants are not the cause of low survival numbers of Fall stocked fingerlings. He feels that the young fish are starving to death as the food supply is so much less through the Fall and into the Winter. I hope he is correct and we all enjoy a better population of Rainbows in Crane for the future. At any rate, I applaud biologist Hodgson for his efforts at trying to solve the puzzle.

    I fish crane more weeks than not during the open season. Like you, the last couple years we are catching many more wild fish than clipped fish either 2N or 3N. We caught more Brookies last year than this year, but still some nice Brooks this season.

    Great fishing for large Kokes between 15"-18" routinely the last 2-years. The Kokes eat any color or size pupa we are hanging for Rainbows! Very spirited fighters and jumpers in the shallow water of the Prairie! :)

    Edit: I just saw your edit FC, glad to know who you are on this site. Respect.


    Randy
    Mark Kraniger likes this.
  10. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    The number one thing the ODF&W should stop doing is allowing B.A.S.S. tournaments to take place at Crane when the LMB in the lake were illegally introduced. What kind of message does that send to Johnny Bass Seed?

    I once asked a ODF&W official about the bass in Crane and he told me that bass anglers also buy fishing licenses... pretty much sums it up for me.

    If you can't tell, I don't go along with the 80 percent of the polices of the ODF&W.
  11. Sinkline Active Member

    Posts: 57
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    Gene, I am 100% with ya on the management of illegally and criminally introduced fish in our trout waters. But, as you know, many of us have waged this battle with the ODFW over the years and have essentially lost. The best we can do is try and be proactive and help make little changes to help our cause when and where we can. You helped us with your letter to get the 16" rule on Crane and that was a plus. We wanted more, but we did get something of value there. If I didn't thank you for that effort.., I thank you now.

    One thing to remember is there are very many good people on the ground of the ODFW, it's the upper management that has priorities that are other than what is right for our fisheries, and fish that are the problem. Kinda like many big businesses in general..., "to hell with the employees, it's all about the bottom line"! :)


    Randy
  12. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    The regs change was weird at best. I don't see the point of allowing the kill of ANY wild rainbow. What was up with that clause to allow the kill of one? Do the guides and resort owner really think it makes a big difference in their business if their clients can kill one wild rainbow?

    I sent an e-mail indicating what I thought of that part of the regulation change... most likely, by now, the ODF&W has a photo of me on a dart board.

    There are some decent folk in the ODF&W but as you mentioned, they can not overcome the idiots in power. It took me a few years to figure out that the benefit of the fisheries has nothing to do with how ODF&W does business... and to them, it is a business.

    Randy, BTW, good to see you over here.
  13. Sinkline Active Member

    Posts: 57
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    Gene, like you, Brett D., Royal and I were not happy about Hodgson conceding the part of the proposal that would have eliminated the kill of any and all wild/native Rainbows. I contacted Brett H. about the last minute concession. He told me several things which mostly made sense. Hodgson told me, that he felt from conversations within the inside that the whole proposal would go down if not modified. He felt it was better to concede part of it and gain some good verses maybe gaining nothing if the proposal failed entirely. Next, he told me that redd counts of the wild fish are high enough to sustain the population with minimum harvest. Thirdly, and the issue that makes the most sense was about unintentional mortality of released fish. Brett H. commented that considering the high water temps. in shallow Crane during the Summer, and poor handling techniques by some anglers, that a certain percentage of released fish are gonna die anyway. So, he felt the better compromise was to agree with the harvest of 1-wild fish as if the same percentage of released wild fish would die anyway. Allowing the retention of that one over 16" wild fish may get that angler off the water for that day. it's a bit of a trade-off but either way, the result the fish comes out about the same. Like you, I still wish we could have gotten 100% release of all wild fish (I think Hodgson would prefer that as well) and let the chips fall as they will regarding survival.


    Randy
  14. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    The regulation is just as dumb as allowing the kill of rainbow at Davis if they are within a slot limit. For crying out loud! The rainbow have a hard enough time surviving as it is with the LMB taking over the lake without fly anglers also killing them.

    What bothers me about that sudden "compromise" for Crane was the fact that I contacted a lot of flyfishing folks and suggested they send e-mails in support of the regulation proposal AS IT WAS. And they did. I did not support a regulation that allowed the kill of any wild trout nor did those I contacted yet we ended up sending e-mails in support of a regulation that did ultimately allow the kill of a wild rainbow.

    That was a bait and switch as far as I was concerned. The ODF&W burned all of us who supported their original proposal. I won't forget that one. They can justify it seven ways to Sunday but the fact remains, they modified the proposal at the last minute and changed it to one I wouldn't have supported.
  15. Sinkline Active Member

    Posts: 57
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    Bakerite, sorry for hijacking your thread. :-(

    I don't know the reasoning for adding Cutties and Rainbows to Hosmer??? ODFW gave a reason as, "To enhance the fishery". That was written in the, "Spring Fishing Forecast".


    Randy
  16. Sinkline Active Member

    Posts: 57
    Ratings: +56 / 0
    Gene, I did not know of the compromise (and neither did Brett D. or Royal) at the time I solicited support across the forums and that's the truth.

    I am thankful for the support you helped us get because I think Hodgson is fully onboard with what is right for the fishery, but had to choose to fight again another day. I do completely understand your feeling about the issue though. I do fully agree with no-kill on wild fish at Crane even if they seem to be holding their own anyway. "It is what it is", I am not gonna let it ruin my stillwater fishing "stewing" over it, even though when I get into these threads I am also angered about ODFW's position of how they choose to manage our stillwaters. I'm too old now to spend much time being angry (har,har). :)


    Randy
    Mark Kraniger likes this.
  17. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    I don't really stew over it. Just another reason that I don't get along all that well with the ODF&W. I'm good friends and fishing buddy with a tech who worked for the ODF&W waiting for a biologist job and he told me long ago how they operate and so far, he has been right on. Fortunately for him, he got the fish biologist job with the Federated Tribes of the Siletz and is able to manage as we wants and doesn't need to deal with the politics of the ODF&W on a daily basis. His name is Stan Van De Wetering and he's been on Oregon Field Guide a number of times because of his unique approach to fish management.
  18. bakerite Active Member

    Posts: 273
    Baker City Oregon
    Ratings: +74 / 0
    Sinkline, no problem with the hi-jack....we are of the same mind. I moved to Oregon from Montana and can not believe the way they manage trout (the afterthought fish) over here. They still dump pellet-heads in our streams and when I asked the regional biologist if they would consider trying to manage for some wild fish on some of our less accessible stretches of water where there is an occasional nice trout, he said they had no research to support that and that I would have to get a bunch of the locals to support it. So we have streams over here that have populations of beautiful redbands with 5 fish limits and bait allowed!
  19. GAT Active Member

    Posts: 3,942
    Willamette Valley, OR
    Ratings: +2,532 / 0
    You don't EVEN want to whisper catch and release where you live.
    It is their god given right to kill any fish they catch up to and beyond the limit. The mindset in that part of Oregon is not likely to change.

    In regards to Hosmer... I'm sure, as with Crane... there are guides and resorts behind the planting of clones so clients can kill what they catch. I'm not falling for a trophy rainbow fishery at Hosmer in the least. The reason the ODF&W does what it does is due to politics and money. It is unlikely that will ever change.

    The ODF&W is dedicated to the hatchery, catch and kill system.
  20. Irafly Active Member

    Posts: 3,566
    Everett, Washington, USA.
    Ratings: +1,016 / 1
    Chris, have you considered starting an OregonFlyFishing.com website?