Wolves on the Westside?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by scottr, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Good suggestion. Not sure what I'd do if we got to camp and found wolves already there, lounging around the fire with a glass of single malt plotting an attack on defenseless livestock - or fly fishermen.

    K
  2. Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    I'll have my 3-wt loaded with hollow points to defend camp against any packs of marauding wolves looking to slaughter innocent fly fisherman indiscriminately...

    D
  3. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Wow - there's WiFi at Noe Creek now? How's the fishing this morning? Any sign of wolves?

    K
  4. Trustfunder Active Member

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    "If it grows you harvest it, if it moves you shoot it, if it swims you catch it." What mans been doing for 1,000 of years and no tree/fur/feather hugging ecologist is going to stop it.

    How do you like those apples?
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  5. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Pretty confrontational I'd say. While it's easy to talk tough as an anonymous participant from another time zone on an Internet forum, I think this would be a LOT friendlier conversation if we were all having it around a campfire.

    But I could be wrong . . .

    K
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  6. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Absolutely agree.
  7. dflett68 Active Member

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    i like those apples fine up until the last 150 years or so. if you want to say that we should keep things they way they have been for 1,000's of years, then you'll need to also roll back the technology and especially the population to what they were before. otherwise it just won't be much longer before there's nothing growing, moving, or swimming - including us. by the way, 1,000 ago nobody killed things just because they moved - that kind of disrespect (and lack of self-respect) is also an invention of modern man.
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  8. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    Wolves have no respect I guess, as they "sport kill" and have been documented all over the place for doing it. So I take it you have no respect for the wolves either right?
  9. dflett68 Active Member

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    i don't expect wolves to behave like people, and i don't expect people to behave like wolves.
  10. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    Well you said surplus killing was invented by man. Wrong.
  11. Joe Goodfellow Active Member

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    Wolves are killing sheep to keep balance. The western societies don't know anything about that. If people would stop and think what where doing to this planet. We would be better off if we just let nature do its thing. Man thinks we own this planet that's wrong we belong to this earth. Our mother earth is going to wipe us out if we don't change.
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  12. ChrisC Member

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    Practice what you preach and make a visit to Bonneville dam for its all too many "sea kittens".
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  13. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    LOL Total nonsense.
  14. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Hi TFG,

    Just curious about your statement that wolves "sport kill," as I've seen something similar said in other places on this thread, and I also responded to a similar post by Ribka.

    I guess my trouble with that statement is the idea that the wolves are just doing this for "sport," with no real reason behind it. Killing for sport is indeed something that we (humans) do, and we know that we do it because we talk about it, etc.

    But with wolves, I feel like there must be some deeper reason for it. As I said earlier, I think that in most instances a wild animal is not going to expend energy unless they get a good return on that energy. We see this in fishing--fish aren't going to move from a holding lie unless they get a good return on that (either a tasty meal, or maybe scaring something away that might be competing with them).

    So with the wolves, there must be some reason that they would expend the energy to kill livestock and not eat them. We can't say that they are just heartless brutes being cruel to sheep. We may not understand why they do it, but I think we should assume they have some good reason for doing it.

    And this isn't to say that it is okay, or that it is a free pass for wolves to do it. Far from it. I agree that if a pack of wolves is decimating a rancher's herd, then he/she should have the right to protect his/her herd, or the appropriate government agency should step in and help.

    All I'm saying is, let's not insert an emotional, qualitative idea into the argument. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but I think it's important not to assign our own labels to these actions in that way.

    Cheers,

    Jason
  15. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    OK, follow me on this logic...

    IF you put a couple wolves in large 10,000ft x 10,000ft pen, with 15 elk, what is going to happen. According to most here, the wolves are so smart and wonderful they will only kill one elk a month because they are so smart and yada dada yada dada. Do you really think Wolves are that smart? Wolves are opportunistic, and if there is an opportunity for an easy fresh kill/meal, it will be killed. Pretty plain and simple.
  16. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Of course.

    I'm not sure that really addressed my post though. Unless you are trading "sport" killing for "opportunistic" killing.

    In that sense, I think I would probably agree. They see an opportunity and they take it--that's what we would expect a wild animal to do. It's not a matter of them being "smart," as you rightly point out.

    And to be fair, I don't think anyone here would assume that wolves "are so wonderful and smart" that they will ration their supply of elk. I certainly didn't say that. I think most contributors to this thread have done a good job of staying away from hyperbole and making superfluous statements of that sort.

    Cheers,

    Jason
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  17. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    Sport killing/Opportunistic killing.... However you want to describe the mass killing and waste of wildlife by wolves. What are you meaning when you say they have a "deeper" meaning or some other "smart" rationale for killing/wasting so much? Simply put, they kill when they can. There is no other "deeper meaning" as you insinuate there might be.
  18. Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    Actually there's quite a bit of documentation of behavior in MANY different animals who will cache food against leaner times when hunting/foraging might not allow them to feed otherwise. Think of squirrels and other rodents who stash acorns before winter.

    In his wonderful book Gifts of the Crow, author John Marzluff, assistant professor of Wildlife Science at the UW's College of Forest Resources, cites numerous examples of how crows and other corvids will not only stash food, but will rehide it if they think competitors may have seen where they originally hid it.

    He documents how corvid's brains actually expand during times of the year in which there's an abundance of food, a strategy that allows them to accurately remember where they hid excess food. As 'harvest' season passes and they gradually retrieve the food they hid, their brains slowly shrink to normal size and the process repeats the following year.

    If crows are smart enough and adapted to plan ahead for future food needs, why would anybody think that wolves are too stupid to do the same?

    K
  19. TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    I'm sure many of the dead elk, killed by wolves, who are left to rot in the mid summer sun were left there for leaner times. I'm also sure all the cattle and sheep that were killed in august were there for a short time, cuz wolves were gonna come back and butcher them up and put them in trees or in their freezer somewhere in the woods.
  20. Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    Hey Kent,

    I absolutely agree. I was only referring to TFG's hypothetical situation where wolves are penned up with elk. I think wolves are probably far more intelligent and intentional than some folks are giving them credit for.

    I'm wondering if there are any studies or theories that explain why wolves would kill something (livestock, for example) without eating it. Would be interesting to learn more about that occurrence. I'd also be interested in learning how often this actually happens.

    Jason
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