Wolves on the Westside?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by scottr, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Olive bugger

    Olive bugger Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,875
    Likes Received:
    544
    Location:
    Woodinville, WA
    Are we certain that there is a plan like that in effect?
    Sounds a little bit like PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN dialogue to me.
     
  2. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    Messages:
    8,282
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    2,450
    Location:
    Your City ,State
    OB,

    Have you read the plan? I did, and as one who is not a wolf specialist, it makes sense to me. Why speculate about that which can be verified? Try reading; information does wonders.

    Sg
     
    Dan Nelson and Ed Call like this.
  3. Nate Buchanan

    Nate Buchanan Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    out there
    Don't play the suffering animal card. Everything on this earth has its place in the circle of life.
     
  4. Gary Thompson

    Gary Thompson dirty dog

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    154
    Location:
    East Wenatchee, WA
    I wish I had some pop corn.
     
  5. Olive bugger

    Olive bugger Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,875
    Likes Received:
    544
    Location:
    Woodinville, WA

    Well, I for one, am happy that you read the plan and that it makes sense to you. Please let me know when the State starts controlling the packs and how the methods work out. I really don't have to speculate about past performance of those in the we know what is good for the rest of you group I guess that we the tax payers get to pay for the great experiment also. I have read about some of their experiments in the past.
     
  6. Trustfunder

    Trustfunder Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    68
    Location:
    rock creek
    What more would an open-minded person want?

    You got me thinking now.....

    Uhhh... for starters taken off the ESA, no one knows how many wolves are out there (there in 7 states with a pop of??) At what level do they get varmint status or reach carrying capacity... no one knows? How long on the Endangered species list... again? My lifetime I predict.

    Ummm... put a budget on wolf management that's funded through people who want to see wolves and re-imbursement of livestock loss. No more leeching off of hunters or elk/deer license fees should finance this nonsense. Pay ranchers a fair market value for any loss to livestock, plus the additional loss of weight caused by wolf harassment. Hey, they had it this way prior to wolves, why should they incur the cost for another’s wants and needs.

    Create a FWP state wolf czar (who's a hunter and wolf lover) to make decisions on big game management for states (Montana), who has the balls and leadership to offend people. Take the whole wolf issue out of courts so the wolf loving people can't keep paying lawyers with our taxpayer money. Take all lobbying efforts out of wildlife decisions.

    A full disclosure of what the wolf introduction cost the American public, where the funds came from and who's accountable for that decision.

    An acknowledgment to those who've conserved this great land since Roosevelt days, that without these hunter dollars, we would have no wolves today.

    The right to shoot on site any wolf that steps foot on an ungulate wintering range. The land was funded through license fees, wolf license fees have centuries to catch up.

    I'm no biologist but I do know that when I see a wolf gallop across my neighbors horse pasture, a bugle is a rare occurrence bow hunting where there "was" plenty of elk years past, seen 5 moose in 3 years when I use to see that on a day’s drive, makes me think there might be a problem.
     
  7. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,878
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA
    Home Page:
    What does a rancher/livestock breeder pay for the use of public grazing lands? Per head/acre/duration?
     
    Ed Call and Salmo_g like this.
  8. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,051
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Washington
    What is the re-imbursement payoff after a pack snatches a kid off of a national forrest hiking trail?
     
  9. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,641
    Media:
    178
    Likes Received:
    405
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    If you are honestly scared of wolves you have obviously forgotten your place in the food chain and probably no longer deserve your placement at the pinnacle.. Would you, could you, do you, cry as vocally about a real danger to your life such as travelling in a motor vehicle?
     
    Ed Call, Bill Aubrey and Derek Young like this.
  10. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,051
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Washington
    I haven't forgotten my place at all and am honestly scared of wolves. Fear is a good thing in this case. My fear of that animal makes me respect it and understand that if that animal comes near me, It needs to be taught to fear/respect me as well. It's the people who don't have a fear/respect for that animal that are the problem. It's no secret that almost all wolf attacks, rabies excluded, are from animals that have become socialized to humans to some degree. Do the tens of thousands of people that hike our trail systems every day provide that socialization?

    And yes, I am way more vocal about travelling in a motor vehicle. In fact, meet me on the I90 bridge this afternoon where you are pretty much guarenteed to hear at least 30 new uses for the f word at loud decible levels coming from my motor vehicle directed towards people who can not drive.
     
  11. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,192
    Likes Received:
    390
    Location:
    the beach
    What's funny about this thread is that it shows you, very clearly, three distinct types of people:

    1. Those with the attitude of protect the wolves no matter what, humans are the ultimate problem, and anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
    2. Those with the attitude of "I don't trust this government funded program, wolves are bad, taxes taxes blah blah." Actually, this argument gets more and more boring every time I read it, and it's obvious that these folks have made up their mind and don't have the patience to actually read up on the issue, learn about it, and wait and see what might come of it.
    3. Those who have heard of a little thing called logic. People who don't mind looking into both sides of the issue, seeing the merits of both. These are people who realize that taking extreme sides--having an all or nothing attitude--will get you nowhere and will severely limit any opportunity you might have to actually learn something. Salmo_g said it very well: Try reading; information does wonders.

    Luckily, it seems like most folks on here fall into the 3rd category. I suppose we can maybe learn something, now and then, from those in the first 2 categories--but it's annoying having to wade through all the crap to get there.

    Jason
     
    Bill Aubrey and Jeff Sawyer like this.
  12. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    575
    Media:
    17
    Likes Received:
    148
    Location:
    Olympia
    They pay around $1.50/AUM (Animal Unit Month) to graze on public land. That is the range necessary to support a cow and her calf for a month. Market rates are close to $20/AUM on private pasture.

    I'll qualify this by saying that most public lands are not as productive as private grazing lands, so it takes a greater range to support an AUM.

    Why aren't we mad that the state/feds are spending money to protect cattle interests on public land that are being leased at below market rates? (See recent wedge pack culling) So far almost one wolf has been killed (hunted or "managed") for every confirmed wolf depredation.

    BTW, Nate, your comments are threatening to upend an uncharacteristically civil conversation. I would sugest that you refrain from further speculative rants. If you have something positive to contribute, feel free.
     
  13. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,878
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA
    Home Page:
    This is my point - ranchers are paying far below market-value for the use of public lands, and then asking for reimbursement when one of their animals falls to an apex predator, on public lands? This is either corruption or hypocrisy at it's finest.
     
  14. Trustfunder

    Trustfunder Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    68
    Location:
    rock creek
    Read all you want with an eye on skepticism towards the source, if the studies/management guidelines you've read doesn't add up to the experience afield then you become jaded like me. Common sense goes a long way in what a wolf is created to do.

    The issue is management, the controversy is about numbers and how can one develop a plan without fully realizing the situation of a highly mobile, very reproductive species that has an impact like no other preadator. I'd be more comfortable with wolves if this had been a natural migration, (and it's been documented in GNP in the 70's, the Bob in the 80's, Ninemile pack in the 90's, this sounds like a natural balance to me...see I read too) but someone more scholarly than me decided we needed more wolves to restore the natural balance and hide it under the ESA.

    In our current state (MT) of affairs, we hunters would like to thank Idaho for giving us the idea to dispatch up to 3 wolves per person this season. I have nothing against the wolf, I think every dyed in the wool, blue blooded Montanan should own a pelt or two. When balance is restored then I might be crying for a wolf howl in my old age.

    Time to harvest the corn!
     
  15. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,200
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    m-ville
    This is a interesting debate, Ranchers getting a deal on public range land. It's like tring to estimate how much money the taxpayers put into fisheries so people can make a living as a fishing guide off a public resource. wheres the hypocrisy ???
     
  16. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,878
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA
    Home Page:
    Didn't take you very long to go there, did it? I pay what the State requires me to, in fact my commercial guide license increased last year by 50%, with no changes in enforcement, land acquisition, restoration, or otherwise. And I'll gladly pay more AS I act as a steward for the land, the fish, and everyone's ability to enjoy the fisheries. There's no hypocrisy here. Get back on topic.
     
    Ed Call and Bill Aubrey like this.
  17. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,364
    Media:
    45
    Likes Received:
    641
    Location:
    Kalama, WA
    I'm pretty sure we pay them to use public lands :) Hooray for federal subsidies.
     
    Derek Young likes this.
  18. Bill Aubrey

    Bill Aubrey Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,065
    Likes Received:
    179
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    Wow! Three walk off homers. Congrats Salmo_g, Jason and Derek Young.
     
  19. Derek Young

    Derek Young 2011 Orvis Endorsed Fly Fishing Guide Of The Year

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,878
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Location:
    Snoqualmie, WA
    Home Page:
    Here's another way to look at it - imagine an angler sending a bill to WDFW for each fish taken from the river by the eagles, osprey, otters, etc. It's ridiculous.
     
    Bill Aubrey likes this.
  20. inland

    inland Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2003
    Messages:
    622
    Likes Received:
    75
    Location:
    .
    Skeered of the big bad woof? Nah. Haven't spent a lot of time with them in the woods. Had one feeding on a moose head a hunter left on the river bank, less than 20 yards from the steelhead run I was fishing. Saw several others as parts of a packs throughout various other trips to the hinterlands of BC. Many times well within 50 yards.

    Grizz bars? Now those make me nervous in the woods. One must take special precaution to stay outside in grizz bar country. Let alone black bar country. One does not fish 20 yards from a grizz bar without a care in the world.

    Bullwinkle? Um. Considering I have seen about the same number of grizz bars and woofs as moose in the woods. I don't like bullwinkle or his girlfriend. Especially his girlfriend with youngins. The only trouble I have ever had in the woods (aside from blood sucking insects driving one to the brink of insanity) with critters has been bullwinkle.

    Well there are skunks. I am a shitpile more skeered of a skunk then a woof or bar or moose.

    And rattler snakes. Not skeered of snakes. Just PAY ATTENTION. My son is skeered to death of them. When he gets buzzed he does this funny levitation uncontrollable groaning thing. I kinda like them because they are spooky.

    Other humans? Yep. In general the worst trouble one will ever encounter be fellow sapiens sapiens. Especially the ones that live in rural areas with woofs. Not a one of them isn't packing a concealed handgun. And there are the ones that smash and grab what they wish from a vehicle left on quiet backwoods roads.

    I do like to hunt big game. Especially the food source that causes all of the hate towards woofs. 'Save a hundred elk, shoot a wolf' bumper stickers. And so on. I guess I don't mind woofs in the wild even though they do impact the herds. I relish the challenge.

    As a fisherman first I do like the fact that yellerstone cutts have appreciated the return of the beaver in a select few drainages. Once the ungulates with big beautiful racks (and tasty meat) stopped stomping and eating all the willows the soft pelted PITA mammal showed back up. They did what they do and dammed the cricks. Them yellerstone cutts liked it and numbers of fish grew. Kinda how it is supposed to work.

    Long live the managed woof pack in the wilds...
     
    Bill Aubrey, jwg, Derek Young and 3 others like this.