Yarnies - Love or Hate?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by flyfishmt, Nov 10, 2013.

  1. so you are saying swing fishermen are animal rights activists who hate hooking fish?

    sucks when people put words in your mouth ;)
     
  2. David, where can i find a pattern for a Little Sol Duc?
     
  3. just buy steelhead bait hooks, tie them on with a bait loop then cut yourglo bug yarn and sinch it in the loop...
     
    Chris Johnson likes this.
  4. What were you saying about words into ones mouth? Sensitive, laughable! Potkettleblack! Who used a swear word first? Ha ha ha.
     
  5. Why not?
     

  6. I is just a Sol Duc spey on a size 8 or smaller up eye salmon hook. If you really want some, I'll send you some :)
     
  7. you should post a picture. i always enjoy seeing glasso flies and i suck at tying them.
     
  8. The whole "swing vs catching" thing is just a shot at us swinging fools. I won't read much into that from Nick, other than it being a bit of a jab because swingers tend to act a bit more enlightened than the rest.

    But, that whole mentality is very evident on the water. Put a bunch of swingers on a river and you'll see people talking to each other about where they're going to fish, do you mind if I step in below you, etc. You'll get swing fisherman stepping in below you but usually it's someone new to the game and a simple conversation is usually enough to get us all back onto the same page. Not so with the bobber tossers. These fish are mine and I'm going to get what's coming to me. VERY general statements on my part, but they come from lots of on time on the water.

    I don't blame anyone for wanting to get out there and catch a fish. The mentality has pushed me in other directions and is not the only fishery that I've watched deteriorate into a "get mine at all costs" endeavor. I just tend to move on.

    Edit: I can understand the reasoning as I think it's easier to toss hardware, and feel confident, amongst a bunch of other anglers than it is trying to swing with pressure on the water. 3 boats on a stretch of river I plan to float and I'll break out the long rod. 8 boats on that same stretch and I have a couple rods set up for each of us to fish hardware.
     
    JesseC and Charles Sullivan like this.

  9. Will do, stand by. I will warn you I think they are pretty good, but every time I see the version Ververka tied, I think I suck.
     
  10. Thanks! I'm beginning to tie both Spey and Dee flies, and would really like to be able to tell the difference between those and a Glasso fly at a glance. It also gives me an excuse to get more tying material:D Can't have too much!
     

  11. If you don't have it, find this book...it's one of my favorites...http://www.amazon.com/Spey-Flies-Dee-History-Construction/dp/1571882324

    I'm also a big Ververka fan and this book is money IMO as well. I didn't realize it had become such a premium priced edition...http://www.amazon.com/Spey-Flies-Ho...07G_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384189923&sr=1-2

    Maybe I'll scan it to a PDF someday to make a loaning copy.
     
  12. lol Mr. Sensitive? Don't recall anyone using foul language prior to this post. Relax man, I was referring to these "threads" in general, not specifically this thread and anything you may have said, or "inferred" :D
     
  13. "Shot on the leader is gear to me. That's my line, along with bobbers."

    My only point, is that in these threads the line gets drawn by the swingers... And anyone who disagrees is sensitive, butt hurt, needs to just embrace their love of gear fishing etc.... Why is a small piece of shot added 18" above a stonefly nymph NOT fly fishing, but using 15' of lead core line to drag a brightly colored fly the size of a soft ball across the bottom is? Why? NOBODY can explain this to me. That's the question I keep asking, and the only thing that seems to be said is that I just need to embrace my love of gear fishing, and accept it. Why? I don't fish steel anymore. I've never caught one on the fly. But the concept makes zero sense to me.

    Is swinging an egg pattern on an unweighted line using spey rod fly fishing? What about swinging that same egg fly using 15' of T-14 to drag it in front of the fishes face? To me a fish eating a single egg is FAR more natural than a fish getting pissed off at a brightly colored invader constantly swinging through their home and attacking it.

    I don't care how you fish. I truly don't. And I don't care what you call it. Fly fishing, gear fishing, pinning.... Its all about having fun. I don't get offended when someone wants comes on here and post a report saying they swung a pink/purple/chartreuse steelhead rag, (cause honestly, whats the difference between some of these swinging "flies", and a rag?) through a run using a line made out of LEAD to put it in front of a steelheads face enough times that it got pissed off and ate it. I'd be willing to bet that plenty of "traditionalists" swinging for atlantic salmon on the other side of the pond would laugh at someone referring to that as fly fishing. Never, EVER do I see nymphers jumping into a report like that and stating "Oh geez, you're just gear fishing. Get over it". Yet it happens all the time when someone posts a report about fish caught nymphing, or on beads or whatever, and a swinger jumps in just to inform us all that those were in fact NOT caught fly fishing. Yet it's nymphers and beaders who are rude?

    It all comes down to opinion. All of it. I just get tired of constantly being told by swingers that by having a differing opinion, I am wrong. I am sensitive.

    I also don't understand the concept that by wanting to catch more fish, someone is somehow evil or a bad person. Sometimes I have to wonder why fish at all? Why don't some people just become photographers? If its all about spending time in nature, being one with the river, and all the other poetic stuff that is usually found in a report minus any actual catching.... Why bring a rod at all? People get into fly fishing for their own reasons, I know. Personally, I got into fly fishing to catch more fish than I was currently catching. When I was a kid we used to take yearly trips to lake Tunkwa. We'd troll unweighted flatfish, and occasionally fish bait, and we had a blast. Caught a lot of fish, but I eventually noticed that fly fisherman were consistantly outfishing us. By a large margin. It didn't take too long watching those reults for me to ask for a fly rod for my birthday. I didn't get into it because I wanted a challenge. I didn't get into it because I wanted to be one with nature. I got into it because chironomids outfished flatfish. Period. That may make me a bad person, and I'm fine with that. It doesn't, however, make me less of a fly fisherman.
     
    underachiever likes this.
  14. This thread is the basic reason that I fish Canada more and more every year. I can't wait until Thanksgiving. Two more days of steelhead flyfishing. If only the Skagit would open again, all would be right in the world. Wild fish, Canadian Whiskey (smuggled fom the US), tight line takes, no boat fishing, common courtesy, flyfishing discussion around the campfire...... I wish we had more of this scene in my home country for sure.

    I already have my next year planned. It generally goes like this: fish gear for salmon and lingcod in the US and flyfish steelhead to the north.

    I got some cork to ream as I build my new yeller downrigger poles.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  15. Charles, isn't it the Canadians who think what you do isn't fly fishing? :p


     
  16. I don't fish T-14 and intruders for summer fish too much. Come winter, we'll see as I have not fished much up there in winter. I suspect I won't be using 15 feet of T-14 though. I certainly won't be fishing weighted intruders since I never tie them. I really don't like fishing weighted flies at all so it turns out that none end up in my fly box.

    The Canadians who have expressed the sentiment that it's less sporting to fish T material and intruders, genrally make the point that they feel it's a bit selfish. The fish will come up if not pounded with tips and 'truders all day. In fact, they are probably right. So it get's to the old thought that if you plan on bringing a girl home from the bar, try for the pretty one first. If you go ugly early then the best you'll get is ugly. Plus making out with a swamp hog in the corner of the tavern will turn off all the other ladies for everyone else.

    By Thanksgiving I suspect I'll be fishing smaller and lighter than most but hopefully they'll be less pressure in the cold sunless canyon.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
    JesseC, Tacoma Red and Nick Clayton like this.
  17. Irafly posted on page 1:
    "Do you think if those who first fished the the OP rivers would have know about the effectiveness of vertical presentations that they would have not used it because it worked well? Is it possible that they stuck with swinging because there were more fish and they didn't have to do anything else? I imagine that if they were faced with the same numbers of fish and the option of the techniques, that these storied characters would laugh at all the people who fall back on tradition/respect for the fish/yada yada for not actually using what works."

    Well Ira, by good luck I happened to know some of WA's steelhead flyfishing pioneers, Syd Glasso, Wes Drain, Walt Johnson, and Harry Lemire I knew quite well. I was also acquainted with Enos Bradner, George McCloud, Ralph Wahl, Mike Kennedy, Brace Hayden, and briefly before his death, Al Knudsen.

    I'll say in complete confidence that each of them was acquainted with the virtue of lead as regards the presentation of bait or lure. They also knew of floats, or bobbers, but not so much in connection with fly fishing, for the simple reason that bobbers are not part of fly fishing (more about this in a moment). They didn't use these additions to their fly fishing tackle for a principled reason. Their collective intent was to fly fish, not spin fish or bait fish (with a couple seasonal exceptions). These men subscribed to sport fishing approximately as described by Roderick Haig-Brown as embodying "tradition, restraint, and ethics."

    [The section on bobbers. Bobbers are handy for two things. One, they keep the bait or lure suspended above what may be a snaggy substrate. Two, they alert the angler to a fish taking the bait or lure. However, it is a matter of some pride among skilled anglers to be able to detect the lightest of bites without an extra aid, like a bobber. The bobber is perceived by the elite as a crutch. Crutches are for the injured or disabled. Therefore the able angler does not use a crutch, or bobber. The skilled nympher casts unweighted nymphs upstream and detects strikes by movement of the leader, line, or sight (and this was before polarized sunglasses).

    The other analogy about bobbers is compares them to training wheels, but I think the above makes the point.]

    Some of them were among the collection of men of the Washington Fly Fishing Club, who in 1940 persuaded the Washington Department of Game to set aside certain waters for fly fishing only, first Pass Lake, and then the N.F. Stillaguamish in the summer season (Memorial Day weekend to Oct. 31 in those days). In order to create fly fishing only waters a definition of fly fishing was needed, so they defined fly fishing as being a fly line of at least 30' and a leader and fly with no lead weight attached. The intention was the the weight of the line should propel the cast, and not any weight on the leader or fly. I think it is safe to conclude that they knew enough about the vertical presentation to exclude it from the definition of fly fishing.

    Regarding gear fishing with fly rods, there is some tradition in that. Some of the fly fishermen listed above were "cross-overs" who bait fished for steelhead in the winter season. Enos Bradner and George McCloud as far as I know. Before good bait casting gear was commonly available in the PNW, and certainly before spinning reels, strip-casting bait, lead, and braided line using a fly reel and 9' heavy action bamboo rod was a popular way to fish for winter steelhead on the NF Stilly and other local waters in the 1920s and 1930s. The Pflueger Supreme bait casting reel of bass fishing fame, before the free-spool feature, rapidly displaced that technique for most bait fishermen. I include this tidbit of history to illustrate that our steelhead fly fishing pioneers were well aware of what methods worked better than others, and that the most effective methods were deliberately excluded from the definition of fly fishing.

    So the steelhead fly fishing pioneers adhered to traditional methods of fly fishing that allowed any method except those that employed bobbers and lead weight. Restraint was also part of that early model. When you consider that catch and release fishing was an unknown concept among both fishery managers and anglers, restraint was achieved by fishing with methods known to be less effective. This was important in the context of Deer Creek summer steelhead. It was a small population of fish that could be adversely affected by over-harvest from the recreational fishery. Some of the fish entered Deer Creek early before the spring runoff totally subsided, and the rest of the run concentrated in the mile of the NF downstream of the Deer Creek confluence. Protection was afforded by closing Deer Creek to fishing year around, and imposing fly fishing only regulations on the NF Stilly. The prevailing thought was that by allowing the relatively less effective method of fly fishing only, sufficient conservation of the Deer Creek fish would be achieved. (Apparently it worked; it was logging that nearly wiped out the run by destroying much of its critical habitat.)

    Tradition, restraint, and now we're left with ethics. The problem I notice with ethics is that they aren't universal. Ethics vary among groups of people, and they vary, or evolve or devolve, over time. The beauty of the wishy-washyness of ethics is that what is gear fishing with a fly rod to some is still fly fishing to others. And there is no viable bridging that chasm.

    Lastly I'll add that I have no issue with nymphing with split shot and bobbers. But out of respect to those anglers who've gone before me, and their collective interpretation of tradition and restraint, I won't concede to calling it fly fishing.

    Sg
     
  18. SG, that's the most coherent argument I've read for what is and is not fly fishing. Thanks!
     
  19. Flyfishmt,

    Sorry about your thread getting hijacked. I realize I contributed to the hijacking, but it seems worthwhile to give the subject some added context.

    Sg
     
  20. I've swung yarnies as my lead fly in front of streamer patterns all year. Sometimes they work :)
     

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