Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by flyfishmt, Nov 10, 2013.
i have never considered that before it kinda makes sense with how deep it is
Randall posted, ". . . throw on a 15' T-14 tip to get their fly in front of more fish. How is that any more restraint than . . ."
Anglers practicing restraint are using 15' of T-14. Not knocking the T-* whatever stuff, but I've never caught a steelhead on a T-anything tip. Oh, I've tried the stuff, but just hang up on the rocks. Since I'm not fishing for rocks, I use tips that swing a bit above them. However, I'll defend the use of T-* material within the context of restraint. Stop fishing after one or two steelhead and don't try to run up the numbers just because you can.
"Stop fishing after one or two steelhead and don't try to run up the numbers just because you can."
that's making an assumption about each individual angler that has little to do with their method of fishing...while that might be something you may do or I may do (yeah, I've done it...hell, I've gone home early plenty satisfied just hooking and losing a big fish)...
It has something to do with the method of fishing when the method selected is because of it's inherently higher effectiveness.
I hit this tiny river yesterday with my family and taught my kids how to fish dry flies, then I showed them how to throw an "indicator" rig, with beads! My daughter said: "Pop, do fly fishermen use bobbers?". I replied: "well baby, generally fly fishermen don't like to call it bobber fishing, but it is and it's okay to do as long as you're having fun and you're catching fish". She smiled. I then proceeded to show them how to catch fish high sticking the slots with metal orange bead egg sucking black leeches with bright orange rubbery legs... And fish we caught and fun was had. I then showed them how to swing cone head buggers. We had fun, they loved it.
That is a great story. Neither the kids or I really have the patience yet for steelhead fishing so we stick to trout and pan fish. Maybe someday. Good on you for making it happen now rather than someday.
As far as Yarnies, sure they are effective. But so are bait, gill nets dynamite and MS-222. It all boils down to what, if any, limits you put on yourself. My constraints vary from season and river but I always keep it within the legal rules/regulations set by our state government.
So basically limits are set as soon as they meet the users need. If a single hand rod and weight forward line just wont throw that huge fly far enough then its perfectly acceptable to reach for a more effective tool.... a spey rod and lead core head. But THAT is where the line is drawn. If a nympher wants to add a splitshot to make that rig more effective well by god thats just being greedy and disrespectful to the fish.
Anyone and everyone should set their own limits/constraints with whatever they are comfortable with and assuming those fall within WDFW regulations (or whoever has regulation oversight), nobody should feel guilty or ashamed with their fishing method. And nobody else should judge another by the their preferred method. If somebody wants to limit themselves to dry flies only with an upstream presentation to feeding fish, why should I care how they get their kicks?
a different method may be more effective (fish caught per fish presented fly to), but if one is presenting their fly to fewer fish (due to less range) and catches two, vs another who is presenting their fly to more fish (greater range) and catching two...they're each still catching two.
exactly. One of my favorite people to fish with only fishes dryline (and mostly skaters) for steelhead regardless of season. The reason I enjoy his company is because he doesn't have that "my way is the best way" type of ego that seems to be more and more pervasive (at least on an internet forum).
I would never teach my kids to indicator nymph..........because I love them. You know parent who nymph have children who nymph.
Good on you for fishing with the kids. Glad they had fun.
P.S. That was a joke.
Looks like you're finally getting it!
Flyfishing uses the weight of the line to deliver the fluire. Flyfishing uses the line only as the weight to deliver the cast. If you choose to add split shot to your line you'd be better off using a centerpin, spinning or baitcasting setup as that's what they are desinged for. Flyrods are designed to throw a line attached to a fly, even if weighted, it is delivered by the line. If you're casting mono line and split shot or jigs you'll do better with a pinner or spinning outfit.
Swinging flies is the least effective method I'm aware of for catching steelhead...but it does work and the grab is what makes it so attractive to many of us. No need to concentrate on a bobber, just hold the rod and let it swing. Two entirely different approaches to fishing for steelhead.
Lol thanks for the clarification. Not sure about everyone else but I can fly cast with a small split shot no problem. In fact i can cast a nymph and splitshot with a fly rod much further and easier than with any gear rod I have used. And it is most definitely the weight of the line delivering the fly, and not the other way around.
I remember years ago when we were learning how to create our own lines and tips listening to one of the region's premiere steelhead guides describe how to make sink tips for different types of water. I watch as he put on a tip to fish slow deep holding water. What I saw was a short length of heavy sink tip material spliced to a longer section of thick floating line which when used in the type of water he used it basically gave a vertical presentation of the fly. He called it swinging. I thought it more resembled nymphing. I still think that today. I never made tips like those because I prefer to swing flies over nymphing.
Do what you like and call it what you want. There are no fly fishing police out there to stop you from fishing the way you want and calling what you want to call it. I will call it what I think it is when I see it.
Ok, so what I'm hearing here is the following: use the proper tool for the job, right? Spinning rods are better at presenting nymphs with a bobber than a fly rod, right? Yet somehow, even then, when one nymphs with a bobber using a fly rod, they aren't limiting themselves because it's so effective....wait a minute, if the person nymphing with a fly rod wanted the most effective way to fish, wouldn't they do it with a spinning rod or centerpin?
ok, back to the "right tool for the job"....how is swinging flies using the best tool for the job. Throw a blue fox on your spinning rod and swing away. waaaaay more effective way of covering water, right?
I get the attraction of the grab, it's fun...a lot of fun. I also enjoy seeing that indica...bobber going down, it's fun...a lot of fun. That's why I do both....and enjoy both.
You should make your decision based on how badly you 'need' to land a fish. If you couldn't bear not coming home without a steelhead under you belt, nymph yarnies. If you'd rather have a shot at one of the coolest fish that swim under more sportsmanlike circumstances, swing flies--the grab on the swing is amazing. Even after a lot of grabs, when it happens I still get a shot of adrenalin that I can feel burn its way through my shoulder. Sometimes, I'm not sure if I just switch to pure instinct, or I black out for half a second, but I've lost time after an enthusiastic grab. It's pretty cool. Also, remember, that even though your chances of success are higher nymphing--chances are, you're going to get home without having encountered a steelhead.
I disagree with you're logic on line drawing--that is, I think you're missing an important distinction. Using a longer rod or t-whatever, doesn't change the circumstances of the engagement. Swinging flies requires a fish that will move from where it is lying, to where your fly is. The fish must then chase and intercept your fly. With a longer rod and longer casts, you're just fishing different water. Like deep wading it is a "fair and equal way of opening a little more water to yourself". The presentation stays the same (+/-). For me, using sinktips is mostly about visibility, I want the fish to see my fly (same goes for bigger flies), steelhead move when properly motivated. I hooked three steelhead on floating lines last January. (Of course, if one is flossing you're changing the circumstances.) I don't think it's about the splitshot--it's about the presentation. I draw the line at the presentation. That said, even with a line being drawn it's still a continuum, paintbrush dead drifted>splitshot>splitshot+indicator.... It's not the splitshot that makes one greedy, it's the greedy. With a limited public resource, greedy begins to impact the ability of others to enjoy that resource.
Sounds like the perfect fishing companion; a humble guy you can fish with and still feel confident in fishing behind him and catching fish. The only other situation that might be better is fishing by yourself (which is what I do most of the time anyway).
Derek, no offense intended, but that seems like a bunch of poetic rambling and not much in the way of actual content. "The fish has to move from where it lying to where your fly is" I would take this at face value if someone is fishing a floating line. By adding a chunk of T-whatever the intent is to make that fish NOT have to move, but rather deliver the fly right in his grill. So an angler using this method is making a choice to go from a highly limited method, (Floating line, unweighted fly) that requires all sorts of line management and creative casting/mending to get the fly down to the fish... and instead add something that will make that task much, much easier.
Same thing goes for a nymph fisherman. It is quite possible, albeit much more difficult, to fish an unweighted nymph with no splitshot and no indicator. This requires lots of line management, as well as creative casting/mending to get the fly to the fish. Many anglers then make the decision, just as many swingers, to add to that current setup to make getting the fly to the fish much, much easier.
My beef is that the guy deciding to add a lead core line to make his ability to get the fly down to the fish, and in turn his ability to elicit a strike, much easier, is showing self restraint and respecting the great and noble steelhead, while the nymph fisherman making the EXACT same decision, is greedy.
It seems that many, if not most folks who start swinging with a single handed rod eventually make the leap to a two handed rod. The reasons stated by many folks on this very forum is that it is much easier to cast big flies with spey rod, its much easier to cast further with a spey rod, its much easier to cast on many of our brushy streams with little backcast room, and its much easier to manage the line and mend with the longer rod. All of those reasons, in theory, make it easier to hook a steelhead. To me that means that the decision was made based on the desire to hook more fish. How is that any less greedy than someone who makes the decision to MATCH THE HATCH, and fish an egg pattern? Both the decision to tie on an egg pattern, and the decision to move from a single hand rod to a double hand rod are made out of desire to either improve ones chances of hooking a fish, or making the job easier. One is perceived as a noble and sporting way to chase steelhead. The other is just being greedy.
I like to fish dirty from time to time, within the regs of course! Spaghetti and meatball rigs rock and so does. Maybe some of us should just refer to ourselves as those who like fish fish with a fly rod and line instead of calling ourselves fly fishermen...