Z-axis of shot guns??

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by seattleangler, Dec 28, 2008.

  1. xdog

    xdog Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Media:
    80
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Washington, Alaska and Louisiana
    Home Page:
    I have to agree. I have shot more ducks, geese, pheasants, chukars and quail with a twenty gauge Browning Citori than any other gun I have owned by far, its a great gun. I also have a newly aquired (4 years ago) Beretta 686 in a twelve gauge with thirty inch barrels that like so much I may have difficulty going back to a Browning. The twelve gauge is as versatile as it gets in regards to shotshell variety and availabilty. The twenty sure is a lot lighter to carry all day for for a serious upland hunter. I think its probably really hard to get a bad gun in your price range or anything that is above $1400.00.


    :)
     
  2. xdog

    xdog Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Media:
    80
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Washington, Alaska and Louisiana
    Home Page:
    What I said. :thumb:
    (duplicate post :eek:)
     
  3. Kaari White

    Kaari White Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    838
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    41
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I'm not a fan of Browning in general. They feel unrefined and bulky to me.I'm partial to Beretta and shot a 12 gauge Beretta Ultralight Deluxe for upland birds. It's extremely light, very quick and it looks pretty nice, too.

    If you want to put your hands on a lot of shotguns, you really can't beat the selection at Cabela's. Much like fly rods, no matter how expensive the shotgun is, if it doesn't feel right to you or doesn't fit you, you won't shoot very well.

    Also, since you're new to upland hunting- save money on your shotgun and splurge on a dog. Given the choice, I'd rather hunt behind a great dog than shoot a great gun.


    Good luck.
     
  4. xdog

    xdog Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Media:
    80
    Likes Received:
    47
    Location:
    Washington, Alaska and Louisiana
    Home Page:
    Excellent advice! I would rather hunt a cheap shotgun or even throw stones at flushed birds behind a good dog than hunt with a $40,000.00 gun without a dog or worse yet a bad dog.

    :thumb:
     
  5. alpinetrout

    alpinetrout Banned or Parked

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,907
    Media:
    294
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    Hiding in your closet
    Yeah, then you can go to the gun shop and ask them which fly rod to buy...
     
  6. steelydan

    steelydan Newb seeking wisdom

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    Sammamish WA
    Fit is everything.
    Go to a real gun shop and try to avoid the mall ninja behind the counter.
    Maybe to to a trap and skeet range and see if an instructor can help.
    Then think about dropping 2500 on an OU.
    There are lots of nice pieces out there.
    FYI, I hunt with an autoloader and I don't mind getting it wet or scratched.
    I would cry if the same happened to my new OU.
    Just something to think about.
     
  7. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    137
    Location:
    Auburn, WA
    I guess my name says it all. I have a Citori 12 ga. and a Ruger Red Label 28 ga. I would recommend both. I love my old Browning A5 as well. I have a light 12, and it never let me down. A Citori is hard to beat.
     
  8. Leroy Laviolet

    Leroy Laviolet Aint no nookie like chinookie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    994
    Media:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    do'n it 4 the chinookie
    In short, the shotgun is like a fly rod... Many are great and capable, but most feal different to different folks...
    I went through your situation last year. Was willing to go as high as a Beretta silver pigeon.
    Ended up with a ruger red label not because of price , it simply fit me the best and felt the best to me- Many are good, get what feals best to you, and you'll be happy- Go to a gun store with all the ones you are thinking about and throw them up a few times, then do it again the next day befor you decide...
     
  9. martyg

    martyg Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    The world at large
    GT - I have to disagree with you on the 12 gauge thing. I parred my collection down to all 12 gauges some time ago. I have English 2" and 2.5" guns that are as light as any sub-gauge gun. And since you are pushing the shot through a less constricted opening, you can realize much better patterns. The only time that I shoot 2 3/4" loads is on waterfowl.

    As far as off the shelf 12 gauges within a $2,500 price range, you can attain a low to mid 6 pound range and shoot 1 1/8 ounce, 1 ounce, or even 7/8 ounce loads with these. This will allow you to attain classic game gun shot / weight proportions of the gun weighing 96 times its designed shot load.

    For anyone looking, this is also the time to buy used. There are a lot of great values out there. The $1K - $5K market is stagnant.
     
  10. g_smolt

    g_smolt Recreational User

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    933
    Media:
    79
    Likes Received:
    188
    Location:
    58°19'59 N, 134°29'49 W
    Seriously?

    "The Z-Axis of shotguns"?

    Have you EVER heard anyone asking for "The Kreighoff of flyrods"?

    That is dumb.

    This thread should be given some sort of award...

    Lacking that, I'm sure there is an inspirational poster that fits this situation.

    Lemme see...ok, here it is.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. gt

    gt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    2,616
    Media:
    19
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    sequim, WA
    no worries martyg. i come at this from the perspective of competition shooting where a 'normal' weekend would be 500-1000 rounds. one gets very atuned to fit and reliability over the course of years of doing this sort of shooting. it is my experience that a well balanced 12 is different than a 20 is different than a 28 or the 'experts gun of choice' the 410. finding a light weight 12ga is an open invitation to a punishing piece.

    the beretta's are great shotguns IF you have a skinny face. my rounded face would come away black and blue. the old browning belgian made O/U's are still my all time favorites and i wouldn't sell them for anything. they have performed with that sort of competition use for about 20 consecutive years of shooting without a single issue.

    don't know about the citori, have shot several, but i am not privy to reliability info. the very best thing you can do is visit a skeet range, not a trap range, where they actually use all 4 gauges. introduce yourself to the range master and get some guidance. chances are very good that on a weekend of shooting, the range master might introduce you to some folks who would be more than happy to let you try some different mfg's products.

    all that said, i would still highly recommend the 28ga for upland birding, IC/IC with a 26" barrel. the 20ga, IC/M with 26" barrels makes a great waterfowling gun for early more lightly feathered birds. once the big 'northerns' show up, its time for the 12ga, IC/M, 26" barrels.

    having had the opportunity to shoot some fine works of art worth more than my retirement account, i might suggest you check out the various BBs which list guns for sale. if you keep checking, you might just find what you are looking for at a reasonable price.
     
  12. BDD

    BDD Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,313
    Likes Received:
    289
    Location:
    Ellensburg, WA
    Home Page:
    I would love to hear more on this...the reasons why...how you concluded this statement...perhaps explain the physics behind it?

    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but more convincing facts are needed before I believe it.
     
  13. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    4,097
    Media:
    100
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    You would be very, very happy with a Citori.
     
  14. Denny

    Denny Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    4,097
    Media:
    100
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Seattle, WA, USA.
    This is some Sage advice (pun intended). :thumb:

    If you think you would like an over-under, you really can't lose with a Browning, Ruger, or Beretta. They will all work well. Someone gave you some great advice of going and getting some 'touch and feel' time with them. The stocks are all differently designed and the shotguns all 'feel' differently, so you should go with what feels best to you. Seriously. From a performance standpoint, they will all work well for you, but if they don't 'feel' or fit you properly, you won't have confidence in your fiream or yourself and it will affect your performance accordingly.

    I love over-unders, but autoloaders are extremely versatile. I love the balance and the swing weight of over unders, but there are times when two rounds (the over-under) just isn't quite enough. The Benelli is arguably the best of the autoloaders, though the 11-87 is a darn nice option.

    My brother has worked in gun shops for over twenty years, was a gun buyer for Sportsman's Warehouse., blah blah His shotgun that gets the most use? His Benelli 12 ga. autoloader. Sure, he has the 20, the 28, blah blah blah, but 80%+ of his bird hunting is accomplished with the Benelli. My dad, who opened up his gun shop in 1975 and sold it to retire in 2002, is and has been an ardent fan of 870's; five years ago he bought a Benelli autoloader after using my brother's shotgun. To these guys hunting is a serious proposition, and they will buy the best for their purposes. They still love their Remingtons (11-87's and 870's), but they have been relegated to second team status by the Benelli.

    To use your Sage analogy, the RPL and other models of Sage rods are great, but the Z-Axis is arguably one of the best, if not the best, trout rod Sage has ever made. So, those other great rods get moved to second team, not because of lack of competence, but because the Z-Axis is that good . . .

    IMHO, a 12 gauge is hands down the most versatile gauge. It's like debating the perfect line weight fly rod (3, 4, 5, 6, ?) for trout. However, to me the 12 gauge is the most versatile because you have a much wider range of ammunition. The 12 gauge is kinda like the 5 weight of the trout line weights; it does a lot of things well, and covers a broad range of circumstances. The 12 gauge should be the 'anchor' of your shotgun inventory; fill in the other gauges after you get a feel if upland, waterfowl, clay pigeons, whatever is going to be your sport

    Gobs of deer have been harvested for decades with single shot .22 LR firearms; they get the job done, but they aren't the best tool for the job. Guys use 5 weights to catch chums; obviously it can be done, but there are better tools for the job. Similarly, ducks can be popped with 20 gauge and smaller shotguns, but they aren't necessarily the best choice for the job.

    If you think you'll be hunting waterfowl, consider this: why are 'duck' versions of shotguns brought out in 12 gauge? Why isn't there a 3 1/2" 20 gauge round option offered? Why do competition trap shooters use 20 (or smaller) gauges? If there were more efficient gauge options or configurations available, I'm guessing they would be offered and/or used . . .

    Listen to me now and believe me later. :thumb:
     
  15. Gatorator

    Gatorator Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
    Just a couple of questions here.

    Isn't using a semi auto on upland birds the same as using a bait casting reel and eggs on Trout? :rolleyes:

    A bit more serious. Using a shottie with fewer pellets causes more wounding. A person can get a long lecture on most fly forums for overplaying a fish on a too light rod. Why wouldn't the same apply to using a too light shottie, or load, for birds? Granted there are a few guys who never miss and always center the bird in the pattern but what about us guys that don't?

    A twelve has the option of much more diverse loads, from 2 1/2 to 3" or even 3 1/2". Many British SXS are in the 5 1/2 to 6 lb range and are, much like a quality bamboo rod, much more interesting to own and use.

    Don't forget that recoil is a product of weight of gun, weight of charge and velocity. A light 20 trying to be a 12 will recoil much more than a twelve trying to be a 20, and not throw as good a pattern.

    For a compromise try a 16. They are becoming increasingly more popular as they are the the perfect in between shottie.

    Also, a true gentleman would never shoot an O/U when a SXS is available..
     
  16. zen leecher aka bill w

    zen leecher aka bill w born to work, forced to fish

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,457
    Media:
    41
    Likes Received:
    1,101
    Location:
    Moses Lake, WA
    Cabela's down in Lacey has some pretty Spanish AyA side by sides. Kesselring's (where did we hear that before Kaari) up in Burlington has a good selection of shotguns and also carries the CZ line of Huglu's. The CZ's definitely fit your budget as they come in around and under $1K.

    I consider the Ruger's clunky and some of the Brownings are also clunky.

    A bit of advise. The best looking shotgun that doesn't fit is way worse than an average looking shotgun that shoots where you look. Gun fit is everything.

    Even though side by sides look prettier, an over and under will be lots easier to shoot trap and skeet with.

    Get screw in chokes.
     
  17. Jeremy Floyd

    Jeremy Floyd fly fishing my way through life

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,628
    Media:
    176
    Likes Received:
    378
    Location:
    Quesnel, BC
    I changed the comb height on my 12g because I was consistently shooting it low after using the 20 gauge for years (which is a bit smaller).

    Luckily the Franchi's come with different size/angle factory shims and are easy to change. Instead of changing my natural sight picture I made the gun perform for my pre-existing habits.
     
  18. sean_k

    sean_k Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2008
    Messages:
    463
    Media:
    42
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Spanaway Wa.
     
  19. cuponoodle breakfast

    cuponoodle breakfast Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    1,707
    Likes Received:
    346
    Location:
    Arlington
    870.
     
  20. rick matney

    rick matney Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,301
    Media:
    197
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Bozeman, Montana
    Well I don't know about the z-axis....but these are the echos!:D

    And cup o' ramen yes I have 4 870's all the older wingmaster ones including 2 limited ed. engraved ones. saweeet!
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page