NFR: 58,000 ballots missing in Florida

I must be reading your words wrong, Leland. As I recall, terrorists took the first shot in this "war" when they killed thousands in NYC. You can hate George Bush and his politics, and you can argue that invading Iraq and fighting terrorism have nothing to do with each other, but please don't suggest that the so-called "war on terror" would not be fought without the current administration's actions. :( John Kerry has had the luxury of being a "monday morning quarterback" throughout this entire campaign, and I still can't figure out where we'd be in fighting terrorism if he had been president.

As for your opinion that this is a war in perpetuity, just remember that they said the same thing about the Cold War when everyone thought the world would end in nuclear holocaust. These cowards will undoubtedly perpetrate many acts of terrorism in my lifetime, but I'm going with the assumption that solid and steadfast leadership will keep my family safe.

Kent Lufkin

Remember when you could remember everything?
miyawaki said:
Unfortunately, we have begun a war with no end. We are spawning new insurgents and terrorist recruits every day.
"Unless we drain the swamp of injustice in which the terrorist mosquitos breed, we'll never defeat the threat of terrorism." - Jim Wallis, Sojourners, to George W. Bush in the White House, February 1, 2002.

It's one thing to interpret this as a call to spread democracy to Muslim nations. Perhaps there's a reason some countries don't already have democracy. Their cultural value system may be such that they simply may not be suitable hosts for the democratic process. A fundamental assumption of the democratic process is that the minority will accept the will of the majority when all are polled. In some countries, the minority resorts instead to violence and bloodshed, often religiously motivated. Look no further than the former Yugoslavia or Ireland to see this collision of cultural values.

On the other hand, it just might be that the 'swamp of injustice' to which terrorists are reacting isn't the lack of democracy process, but rather their perception that America has historically manipulated other countries for its own ends, ignoring the will of its citizens. I would argue that our peculiarily parochial view of the world is a zero-sum game: for us to win, someone else must lose.

Finally, consider Georges Santana's observation: "Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed forever to repeat them."

Remember Viet Nam?


Bob Triggs

Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!
Sad stuff indeed , these political things. It's just a little worse than ever this time around. One thing I liked hearing recently: "There are no elections, only coronations".

We Americans pride ourselves in our liberties. But really, we are just sheep. We take what is given us. And no matter who shows up, or from what party, the banks will always win. And they dont mind how loud we squeel either.

They talk about the issues; health care, economy, jobs, retirement, social security,'s all bullshit. They write new laws every legislative session, safely from behind closed doors ; gun control, crime control, mandatory sentencing, financial disclosure requirements etc. But when it all shakes out, on the street, we see little change.

Our politicians have become performers; carefully rehearsed speeches, profesionally written, are delivered with theatrical impunity during the so-called "Candidates Debates", which have become photo opportunities for our actor/candidates. They say what they believe we want to hear. The sad part is that we actually believe it. But if you listen closely, they never really answer the questions directly, specifically, with relevant closure. It's always a segway into a rehearsed speech. It reminds me of a vacume cleaner salesman who cant hear the word "No" at the door. Do we ever really know these people? I dont think so. They want us to know an "image", and that's what we vote for. When they finally appear human to us we are "disillusioned". But it was our illusion to begin with, we settled for it.

No matter who wins this time, I am going to be a relentless environmentalist / pro wild fish ball-buster for the entire term in office; Presidents, Congressman, Senators, Governors, State Representatives, County Commissioners, Mayors(guess who!), etc. Why give them a break? It's going to take generations to clean up the mess America has become. We are now everything we had despised; overgoverned,devided, overtaxed, underrepresented, ignored, exploited, lied to.

And every four years we get all excited and draw our battle lines over the "issues",( a never ending parade of shifting selectively favored social concerns), and we become even more devided and powerless in our anger and frustration. And no matter what happens; no matter which "hero" gets elected, no matter who loses, what laws are made or broken, "We The People" get screwed and the banks always win.

We are only as free as they let us believe we are. You dont believe that? Step on the wrong politically powerful toes with your freedom of speech and watch what happens to you.

One thing American politicians have forgotten, or maybe they just missed it since they had their noses up the asses of the banks and lawyers anyway:

There are two kinds of politically dangerous people; the first kind is dangerous since he has everything and does not want to lose it, so he is willing to fight for what he has.This fellow can be pretty dangerous, but he's also kind of fat and unaccustomed to personal danger or really putting it on the line since he can afford to have others do it for him,(lawyers, cops, soldiers etc.).

The second kind of dangerous person is the guy who no longer has anything, he has nothing to lose. He is personally resourceful, does it all himself, and he's used to being hungry. So he dosn't hold back in a fight- it's always to the death. That's what it's getting too now.

How much longer can the American people play the game of election cycles and hero's promises and lies? The banks can go on indefinately. But I think we are coming to a place where we, the ordinary citizens, are seeing the "man behind the curtain",( no matter who he is or who his friends are), for what he really is- an actor on thin ice.


Active Member
Riding the fence but definitely ready to 'fall'

I'm posting not to convince anyone else, but rather to just post and get closer to 500!

Bush vs. Kerry...I'd like neither to win, however, who do you choose that lies least, and cares more?

I don't blame Bush for his actions in the Middle East...if anything Clinton in my mind is partially to blame for the terrorist attack on 9/ll. He threw a 'log' more like a missle on the fire that was burning under Osama's ass. Vietnam cannot and should not be compared to the current Middle East situation. Vietnam was a cold war 'tit for tat' pissing game with Russia. It proved to be a stupid 'game'. However, Iraq...terrorism is not a stupid game! If anytime proved to be the best time for the U.S to be police of the world it is now. If the Middle East nut jobs want to plink each other off...that is fine, however, they brought the fight to us, and now it is our turn.

In my opinion remember Pearl Harbor. We entered WW2 with less casualities than 9/11.
wow, nice writing Bob. really sums up what alot of us are thinking well.

with this two party system, i dont think america will ever see greatness again. in reality they are far too close. same party really, just factions of two degrees. we laugh at the hopeless candidates in the back pages of the voters pamphlet from parties we've never heard of buyt in reality the best candidate probably resides among them. not bought and sold. and presumably with truly new ideas.-ryan
I can put up with the sagging economy. I can be patient about our broken healthcare system and hope that congress can patch it up. I can even tolerate the taxes I pay now. But I can't forgive what this administration has done in Iraq.

Because of 9/11 and other terrorist acts, we needed to do what we did against Al kaida in Afganistan. It was, and is, a noble effort. That's where we should have been concentrating our efforts all along.

But Iraq! First off, Iraq was no more an eminent threat to our country than North Korea, probably less. Sure, Saddam was a despotic dictator but he was surely not the only one in the world. The war we began in Iraq sidetracked our efforts in Afganistan, and turned most of the world against us. Our young men and women are being put in harms way to try to carry out an extremely difficult nation building plan hatched up by the Bush administration.

I ask you this: Is the removal of Saddam and the conflict in Iraq worth well over 1000 young American lives? Is it worth all the death and destruction, and chaos we've caused the Iraqi people? This administration has fanned the flames of Musilm extremism. Is it worth the confusion and polarization we now have in our own country? Would you be willing to put your own life or those of your loved ones at risk in Iraq for Bush's noble effort?

We need a change at the helm folks. Be sure to vote!


Active Member
USA consumers and business dependence on cheap oil got us into this mess. The big oil companies bought out our Gov't with the profits. Face it: We (USA consumers) gave Osama, Saddam, Ghadafi and those other crazies every damn penny they have. Every time you swipe your card at the gas station you give them more money for weapons and hate. Pay now or pay later, we need a renewable domestic energy source. There are things we can do besides bitch about our plight. Go buy a diesel car and run USA made biodisel. Americans have always fixed things from the ground up. Bob is correct, looking to politicians to solve all your problems is silly. The USA has always been about the people. Vote? Who cares. Do something that REALLY matters.

If Bill Gates blew up the Trade Center, would you switch to Linux or Apple, or keep paying Microsoft because its "easier" even though Gates said he'd blow up more buildings with the money?

The lazy American blame game has to end.


Active Member
" I must be reading your words wrong, Leland. As I recall, terrorists took the first shot in this "war" when they killed thousands in NYC. You can hate George Bush and his politics, and you can argue that invading Iraq and fighting terrorism have nothing to do with each other, but please don't suggest that the so-called "war on terror" would not be fought without the current administration's actions. John Kerry has had the luxury of being a "monday morning quarterback" throughout this entire campaign, and I still can't figure out where we'd be in fighting terrorism if he had been president."

In the final analysis, it doesn't so much matter who fired the first shot, we are in Iraq and that is a fact. We are an occupying army and long after our kids come home we will be fighting this war. I'm saying that from now on, it goes without saying, that all our succeeding presidents, regardless of political affiliation, will be duty bound to continue this war and keep us safe from terrorism. We will be needing to look at what else our presidential candidates can offer besides protection and now is a good time to begin.



Active Member
here'a an idea, lets talk about the local peeps running for office and how it WILL effect the damn fishing, cus hay, this is "like" a fishing forum? Who supported the WSC and native steelhead? who didn't? somebody post that list!!!! Just some food for thought...

And just because: The war on terrorists didn't start on 9/11. I seem to remember that in the early 90's, Osama bin dildo held a press conference announcing his war against the zionists(you and me). We just didn't take it seriously until it was too late.

Bob Triggs is a freakin genius, great words dude!

YT, I voted for nunya. :beer2:


Banned or Parked
I think South Park pretty much nailed it with their season premier last night. Your choices in any election are either a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich, because no one else will kiss ass enough to get that far in politics. Oh, and if you don't vote, P. Diddy will kill you.
miyawaki said:
" I John Kerry has had the luxury of being a "monday morning quarterback" throughout this entire campaign, and I still can't figure out where we'd be in fighting terrorism if he had been president."
Are you kidding me John Kerry a monday morning quarterback? he is the perfect candidate to help solve the problem with the Iraqi war. this is a little lengthy but it's worth printing. who better to fight a war than a person who has had hot lead shooting past his head!

it's worth noting who really served among the heavyweights in each of
the major political parties. There are some surprises here. Be sure to
read to the end where the TV pundits who jabber about military service
have their military credentials exposed.

* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army
journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V

Purple Hearts.
* John Edwards: did not serve.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star,
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and
seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars,

and Soldier's Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and
Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173 rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze
Star with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Bomber pilot, many missions. Silver Star & DFC
during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Avoided service with student deferments. Entered draft
received 311.
* Jimmy Carter: Annapolis grad. Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Said to have served in Hungarian underground in WWII.
by Raoul Wallenberg.
* Wesley Clark: U.S.Army, 1966-2000, W! est Point, Vietnam, Purple
Silver Star. Retired 4-star general.
* John Dingell: WWII vet
* John Conyers: Army 1950-57, Korea
* Me - US Navy 7 yrs. petty officer 2nd class, Aircraft Mechanic, Anti-submarine warfare operator,Search and Rescue, and Aircrewman

* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* House Whiip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Had "other priorities." Several
the last for wife's pregnancy.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max
Cleland's patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Donald Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight
* George W. Bush: six-year Nat'l Guard commitment (in four years);
questions about his service remain.
* Ronald Reagan: made war propaganda movies.
* Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit,
Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Bob Dole: Army officer WWII.
* Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
* Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, Silver
Air Medals, Purple Hearts.
* Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
* TomRidge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve

Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.

So interesting which party and people wrap themselves in the American


Active Member

Turd sandwich or Giant Douche?? Thats a tuffy... Although a Turd sandwich sounds interesting(and tasty), a giant douche could be aimed at Bin ladens' cave and used to flush him out...... :eek: Gotta Love South Park, damn I missed it!

YT ;)
i cannot believe so many people can actually defend bush. in the last issue of flyfisherman magazine there was a really interesting article on the bush administration and the environment. we only get one planet. the war in iraq is not an answer to 9/11. if it was this administration would have proven some link by now between iraq and al quaeda. they haven't!!!!! but the man who comes out and say's, " i did it!", is still free. come on people wake up.