interesting article- politicians worst fear coming to pass


Active Member
before i look to blame the 'other' guy, i always attempt to carefully review my own ability to deliver. so lets begin by reviewing our part of the co-management equation to ensure that 'we' are doing our level best to uphold our 50% of the equation.

how well are we doing: controlling runoff in urban areas to insure that pollutants we have contributing are filtered? treating all sewage to the highest level of purity before releasing the outflow? controlling urban and suburban sprawl to insure native soils are not covered so nature can help filter our runoffs? controlling the use of dangerous pesticides and other agricultural chemicals so they do not enter our water ways? allowing our streams to adopt their natural meander? pulling bulkworks, pilings and riprap from our saltwater shore fronts? bringing back the few and declining native spawning anadramous fishes to our rivers and streams? enforcing our laws and getting the snaggers off our waterways? getting the fish eating dams off of our rivers when they are contributing a pitance to the power grid? in understanding the detremental effect of continuous 'planting' of tank raised fishes? ......................................

the list can obviously take up more space than is probably permitted for a single post. but my point is simple, i have no high ground to stand on! so for me to cast stones at others, their beliefs and way of life, is simply not ok with me.

as co-managers should we engage in disucssions? well of course. we should also have some clear and defensable catch goals that everyone needs to live with. that would seem a great beginning point and something which needs to be put in place for the benefit of everyone.
First off I agreed completely with ya. But stones aren't being thrown GT. Just questions concerning their actions and efforts in conjunction with ours. Some of this stems from urban legend stuff. We get to throwing stones at each other at times. I've heard now of two elk heads lost. One was the Blue Mountain herd and now the Nooksack herd. I have no idea what the truth is about either. I'd like to know the truth. If we had true liason and co-stewardship we would be able to keep abreast of each other's activities. Maybe a fish and game spokesman or liason office for each and common interaction. Who knows? Development and the almighty dollar are the biggest enemies to our fish. We are reminded (and with good reason) often about our failures by our co-stewards. However when actions on their end are jacked up also, those that really care have a right to vent and question what they see without being called emotionally tinged words. Checks and balances work if they can be utilized without past suspicions and hatred thrown in. As soon as things get tough, the question asker or punk card puller is called anti-Native American. I think it is more pro-wild fish. Perception is a tricky thing. When I pull a year old torn-up net with dead fish in it like I have four times over the years, I wonder if the things I am told are true. When I see a couple hundred or so fish lying dead on the beach at the mouth of the Ballard Locks, I wonder what I can do. I'm told nothing. So are many others. They are as tired of that crap as they are of the state of Washington, dams, lumber, deveopmentect. The courts have decided stewardship percentages in Washington State. We don't have a problem with that. We have a problem with the actions of both them and us That's all. Tight lines Coach

Jeremy Floyd

fly fishing my way through life
Here is my personal take on the entire thing. This is all opinion and is only supported by my own nearsighted personal observations.

ANY group in society that is given free handouts eventually has a significant portion of their group become dependent upon them and lose their survival based drive to succeed and compete for money/food/education you name it.

This is pretty easily seen in the US caucasian culture with welfare programs, in the native american cultures on every reservation I have ever driven across, and all through Canada with their welfare system.

I dont blame the indians for their situation I think it is the system that is at fault. Free handouts are no help as a long term solution. They perpetuate themselves. Each generation seemingly learns from the prior one how to milk every dollar out of the system and it carries on down the line.

Lastly and most brutally;

The indian nations were unfortunately conquered. I do not know a conquered nation in history that has been given such accords and financial support as they have. I can totally agree that they have been taken advantage of many times. I also think that they are faced with the same problem that you and I and everyone else in the world faces which is adapting to change to survive in the competitive world of today. Changing your daily actions doesnt mean that you have to cast aside your history and heritage it just means that you may have to find a happy ground between the two to facilitate your financial success and the longevity of your traditions.

Apathy and laziness which is readily apparent from the lack of pride or whatever in a large portion of society is unfortunate. Facilitating that and making it a successful lifestyle through free handouts is far worse though in my mind.


Active Member
to put this as simply as possible: when i have my 50% of the co-managed resource flying straight and true, i'll stop and look over the fence.


Well-Known Member

You still crack me up!

". . . My tone and writing reflect my thought process. Calm, confident in my beliefs and open-minded. . . " You write like a drunk high on speed. Your writing is very entertaining, and I thank you for that, but I'm still waiting for it to make the first bit of sense.


Salmo g.
Salmo-- I'll try to make a little more sense for you big fella. Just for you. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Whew! Coach
By the way, a drunk on speed? You know Salmo, there is only one way you could connect the dots and make that analogy. "PARTY AT SALMO'S HOUSE FRIDAY NIGHT!"

Paul Huffman

Driven by irrational exuberance.
The more I worked with it, I came to view harvest management in the Post-Bolt era much like the policy of Mutual Assured Destruction: It's scary to give up any power, and there'll be peripheral confrontations, but if you can engineer a balance the power between two adversaries, you can enter into a period of peace and prosperity.

In the 50s and 60s, the Ocean Troll fishery in the NW was growing alarmingly, but there was no mechanism or political will to control it. Lots of part-timers joined in. Just get a commercial license and you didn't have to stop catching when you reached the sport limit. A great summer job for teachers. And river sport catches were really just a swag. Lots of guys bragged about how many punch cards they filled up. You could just go down and get a new one, throw the old one away. It seemed like we were destined to repeat the pattern of the demise of Atlantic Salmon or striped bass on the east coast.

After 1974, escapement goals suddenly became a big deal. Catch accounting became a big deal. Treaty area tribes got staffed up with biologists and enforcement with the help of federal fish management grants. WDG also got some federal grants to staff up in response to the challenge. It was a lot like an arms race. Each side watched the other so that they tried hard every last catch, find count every last redd, and stop the outlaws. If you couldn't meet allocation obligations and the escapement goal, somebody's fishery got shut down under the threat of court action.

In the early 80s, I sat quietly in the audience at the Hoquiam Eagles, hoping no one recognized me as a biologist, while WDF reps at the podium told the rowdy crowd that the Ocean fishery and the commercial gillnet had exceeded the non-Indian share that season and the rivers would be closed. The crowd just couldn't believe it. Many lashed out at the Boldt case tribes, but few made the connection that WDF was going to have to control the ocean fishery to provide for the in-river fishery in this new era where escapement goals were going to be taken more seriously. In the restroom, the drunk at the next urinal told me "Spears!" I smiled politely and shrugged. What was he talking about? "The Indians should be told they have to take their share with spears just like they did when the treaties were written!" I told him "Careful what you wish for. They didn't use spears here, they had big fish traps. No big diesel gillnetters, no modern electronics, and they could still build a big fish trap, catch the whole harvestable number, and we'd really be shut down." I thought he was flushing with anger for a second, but then he picked out one image of me to look straight in the eye. "Crap, I hadn't thought of that!"
Great post Paul. Thanks. I love solid insight into the past, especially from a guy who was in the trenches so to speak. Speaking of in the trenches, educate me and whoever else wants the knowledge on exactly how those escapement numbers are arrived at. Are they predicted years in advance, by air, by redds, by? As a trained biologist, how accurate are those numbers in your opinion. Thanks again. Coach


Active Member
Paul- that post was is one of the better summaries of the situation that i have seen...and in an entertaining anecdotal form too. thanks for sharing it with us.

Jeremy Floyd

fly fishing my way through life
I would be all for something rediculous like rotating rivers every two years and river A and within 400 yards of the mouth is catch and release only and river B is harvestable.. two years later the opposite is true.

I am not a biologist so I cannot tell what sort of impact this would actually have but in my mind it makes sense. We rotate crops for obvious reasons so why not animals?
**Apathy and laziness which is readily apparent from the lack of pride or whatever in a large portion of society is unfortunate. Facilitating that and making it a successful lifestyle through free handouts is far worse though in my mind.**

Now how the hell does that idea relate to specific performance regarding a contractual obligation that a treaty such as the Point No Point Treaty is?

The white folk in this country created the problems we are facing now… and yet they want to allude to some ideology that treaty rights boils down to being lazy because it doesn’t fit into the white folks belief system of actually having to abide by the contracts their forefathers created.

How messed up is THAT line of thinking the Indians are lazy because the white folk reneged on their obligation regarding their own contract to the tribes?


Well-Known Member

Nice try for you, I suppose. Yes, there will be a party. However, I only invite folks who can actually cobble together two or more consecutive coherent sentences in English. I'm almost sorry you won't be there, as I suspect you'd be the most entertaining fellow. Now, did this have anything to do with fisheries conservation? Yes, it does. It's difficult to discuss it unless all parties are communicating clearly. Stringing together unrelated thoughts within a single sentence, or sentence fragment, is entertaining when you do it, but fails to convey any clear thought. Hence, my drunk on speed remark.

You ask to be educated about escapement numbers. Which ones are you referring to, the spawning escapement goals, or the escapement estimates?

Spawning escapement goals are determined differently for different species and different areas/river systems. For most Puget Sound and coastal chinook runs, the escapement goals were determined from 10 year averages between the period 1958 - 1975 when rivers were "thought" to have been adequately seeded. Since "thought," even if professionsal, is such a subjective term, WDF and certain tribes tried to improve on the method of setting the escapement goals over time using a spawner:recruit function that estimates the escapement necessary to produce the highest average yield or harvest, over time. This is called an MSY or MSH escapement goal.

Chinook escapements are estimated on larger rivers from aerial redd counts at 10 -14 day intervals through the spawning period. Estimates from smaller rivers and tributaries are derived by foot surveys of index streams, counting live, dead, and redds, and extrapolating for unsurveyed streams. I'd guess that chinook escapement estimates for Puget Sound are + or - 15% accurate.

Coho escapement goals were derived via habitat modeling, estimating the quantity of juvenile rearing habitat and then estimating the number of adult spawners necessary to seed that at ~100 smolts/female coho (from Smoker at Minter Ck in the 1950s). This is described in the WDF 1976 report by Zillges.

Coho escapements are estimated via foot surveys of index tributaries in each major river system, counting live, dead, and redds, and extrapolating for unsurveyed streams. I'd guess the accuracy of coho escapment estimates varies widely, from + or - 25% to + or - 80% accurate. Tests where known numbers of adult coho were released upstream of a wier demonstrate that coho can be exceedingly difficult to find and count. In the test I'm thinking of, fewer than 25% of the coho were accounted for.

Pink and chum escapement goals have been determined from brood year escapement estimates that, collectively, correlate with good subsequent recruitment. In some cases, the goals were determined from escapement estimates made via adult tagging studies, but many were from much coarser estimates. Pink and chum escapements are estimated from live and dead counts from both foot and boat surveys. I think chum escapement estimates are within + or - 25% unless the river floods and washes away the carcasses, in which case the estimate is worth less than the paper it's recorded on. Pink escapement estimate varies widely, I think. I wouldn't wrap a confidence interval around it.

Sockeye escapement goals were determined for Lake WA based on the estimated spawning area of the Cedar River and the sockeye smolt production potential of Lake WA. Escapement is estimated by lock and ladder counts and appear to be fairly accurate.

Steelhead escapement goals were developed from a habitat model, using juvenile rearing habitat and potential steelhead parr production as the key variables. The seeding component came from fecundity and smolts/female data developed at the WDG station on Snow Creek. Some steelhead escapement goals have been adjusted based on tribal co-manager negotiation, using spawner:recruit data. I think steelhead escapement estimates are within + or - 25% accuracy unless spring runoff blows out the rivers, making survey data unreliable.

There ya' go, Coach. Pretty dull stuff, but clear and cogent, if not convincing.


Salmo g.
Convincing until those fish hit the ocean. You have more than illustrated clearly the guesswork surrounding the "science" of our anadramous fisheries. Granted our biologists are very talented and do the very best that they can. But the variables that have to be inserted into every equation are so complex and vast especially concering migration at sea (and the variables encountered on the ocean journey) that "science" and guesswork seem to overlap constantly. In fact another of our posters with some biology backround e-mailed me yesterday and mentioned how the actual model on migration as applied to our anadramous fished came from Wisconsin. The white bass I believe was the subject and we applied those findings to our fish. That is secondhand, but he convinced me. (Thanks GT) We had no idea what was going on until our friends in the Big-10 did that research. Have a great party at your house. I bet it will be a real rip roaring hum-dinger with you hosting it. Maybe someone will bring a crowbar so they can try to pull out that bug you have in your ass. (Maybe bonnet is approptiate)
Your favorite, entertaining non english speaking drunk on speed. (Who can't put a full sentence together):D