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Tipping a guide...

27K views 206 replies 83 participants last post by  the central oregonian 
#1 ·
How much do you tip a guide for a day's services? I'm not asking how much you SHOULD tip, WANT TO tip or WOULD tip you can afford it. How much really comes out of your pocket? Guides: How much do you get - high, low, average?
 
#80 ·
I feel you should tip your guide unless they were rude, dishonest, unhelpful etc... It is simply a thank you for a good/safe day on the water.
To me the amount you tip doesnt matter as much as the manner in which the tip is given. I was always more grateful for a $20 tip from a guy that had a good time than a $100 tip from an asshole that just felt it was obilgatory. If I could see in someones face that they were grateful for a job well done, it made it worthwhile.

as a guide there is no reasoning how tips come, you can get nothing for a great day or a lot fo a terrible day. It all evens out over time.
 
#81 ·
Topwater,

Excellent post!

I'd think tho that it's pretty straight forward figuring out what to charge. There is usually a prevailing rate in most fisheries. If you're higher than that, you'll probably get fewer bookings unless and until you've established a reputation that merits a premium - and even then, you may not get it. One of the brutal facts of life is that some occupations don't pay a good living. If guiding doesn't, then guides have to evaluate if they need to make a different choice.

I completely agree that anything less than a pleasant day on the water would be a clue to book with someone else the next time.

Jeff,

I'm not trying to change the practice of tipping guides. I'm trying to understand it. Of all the reasons given in this and similar threads, the only reason that stands up to logical analysis is that tipping guides has become customary, altho no really good reasons have explained why. I've hired guides who bust their ass all day to make a good trip, but I can't say they work any harder than some underpaid waitresses I've known who were on their feet all and worked every bit as hard. See BDD's post as an example of the lack of logic or correlation for tipping when compared to other service occupations. Where is the line? Yes, I've tipped the guides I hired, but only because I'd learned beforehand from these internet fishing bulletin boards that it is customary. If someone doesn't tell ya', how would you know? Same with NOT tipping wait staff in restaurants in Europe. If I hadn't learned in advance, I wouldn't have known.

Matney,

Just continuing my contrarian role in this thread, I did the math, and it looks like on average a guide makes about twice the minimum wage, depending on the state I suppose. It takes a worst case condition and long drive to bring it down to minimum wage. Like you say, if money was at the heart of it, you'd do something that pays more.

I once was a fishing guide for one month, working with an outfitter friend. I did it because I figured one month more or less at my regular occupation wouldn't make any difference in my life - and it hasn't. I thought guiding might be a memory maker and be a fun and interesting experience. It was. I had fun. I worked hard (7 AM to 10 or 10:30 PM daily). I met interesting people. I met a couple assholes I'm pleased to have never seen again. The money wasn't enough to raise a family, which I was doing then. But it didn't matter because I'd built up enough annual leave to just take the time off and still get my regular paycheck. I rationalized the guiding pay as compensation for helping others fish instead of fishing for myself during my vacation. I admire what guides do. I've done it. But I won't be doing it again; I'd rather fish for myself on those days off. And I'm not sure I would work for the prevailing guide rate.

I'm still looking for the logic for tipping guides, other than it is customary. The fact that it isn't a high paying job doesn't withstand rational analysis, since many jobs are low paying in this country. I don't tip the plumber, electrician, piano teacher, violin teacher, I do tip the cab driver, but not the bus driver (why? Not customary!), don't tip my dentist or dental hygenist, my doctor, or my lawyer.

Sg
 
#82 ·
Interesting discussion. On the few guide trips I have taken I have always tipped and have usually felt good about it because I felt the guide went above and beyond my expectations. Only one time did I feel I got a raw deal because the river was a mess and the guide should have called and asked us to reschedule ... and once we got on the water the guide gave a poor performance. I probably wouldn't have tipped had I been paying but I was with a relative who had purchased the trip for me as a gift. Interestingly I have a buddy who guides for a lodge that posts on its website there will be a 15% gratuity for the guide added to the trip cost. He often gets more but he is guaranteed at least the 15% every day.
 
#84 ·
Dear Salmo g,
Here's the deal, so now we all know you are some cheapskate ex -school teacher. What is that comment to me,"use logic and show your work" . I own Blue Skies Fishing guide service on the Yakima and Naches Rivers, I have forgotten more about this game than you will ever know. So I say," Show Me The Money" bonehead. You have know idea the personal relationships I have developed with my clients over the last eight years. It is not about the Money it is about simple respect, and in our culture that is expressed with good Bourbon, and dead presidents. But hey I'm just a fishing professional, what do I know.
 
#85 ·
I'm likely not going to make any friends on this post, but I'm posting it anyway. That is what a fool I am. Randal, I think that Salmo G has engaged this thought process from many angles, most of which should be regarded as views which make sense. You own a guide service, you have for some time. He tried it with a friend for a short stint, realized it was a tough way to etch out a living as he said "raising a family" and he moved on to whatever he was doing before that month vacation. I'm glad you have geat relationships with so many of your clients, it is hard not to forge favorable bonds on good water with people of like interests. It does not take burbon, it does not take dead presidents, and to target Salmo G specifically because you think he is a cheapskate ex-school teacher and a bonehead is simply insulting and unnecessary. I'm a cheapskate ex-sailor, retired after 20 years and 9 days of going whereverinthehell they wanted me to, doing whateverinthehell they needed me to do so you could be more comfortable and open your own business. To critizize someone for being cheap, degrade them because they are or were an educator (in my opinion one of the lowest paying, highest impacting our youth and most under respected professions) I say step back to you. It is you who really showed you are the bonehead, I'm sorry to say it as bluntly as you. I look forward to venturing to the Yakima someday this year or next for a professional guided fishing experience that likely will etch memories for the rest of my life, but it will not be with you or your Blue Skies. Not because I'm cheap and don't tip well enough to meet your standards, not because I'm not that great a fisherman to begin with, no, for me it is just becase if you are so darn professional why do you feel it important to target one person for thier views and think it is okay. It is with great regret that I feel that I have to stoop to the same here in this post. I apologize to those who may be offended should they still be reading this long into my post or this long into a five page topic. Randal, you get my bonehead of the (fill in the time period blank here). Good fishing. Damn, now I need a freaking drink.
 
#90 ·
I checked Blue Skies too and agree that the person who honestly pissed me off is probably not the real Randal. Whereinthehell is Bill Dood and his everybody use your name mentality (no offense Chris, I never read your origional post, only the recent version).

If the real poser-poster would stand up and be heard so be it. If this is an axe grinder you are a poor lame excuse of a person. If it is really someone affiliated with Randal of Blue Skies then I am shocked and remain true to my feelings as posted. Should the real Randal not feel the same as the poser-poster then I'd consider mending the fence I thrashed thinking I was really dealing with Randal the business man himself. What kind of crap are some people pulling here?

My name is Mumbles and I approve of this message. If you claim to be someone you are not then you are one of the lower life forms on the Earth.
 
#93 ·
Pretty interesting topic and responses. I've only used a guide twice when I was much younger and I believe my father tipped the guides around $40 or so. Nowadays, after learning to fly fish, I don't even consider using a guide. It seems like cheating to me. I prefer to research the hell out of new waters before I go there. It has worked out pretty well so far. I've gotten good information from posters to web sites like this one (thanks Chris and Gary). If I used a guide service (and I can well afford it) it would take a lot out of the experience for me. I own many types of float craft and can usually locate a shuttle service through the local fly shops or internet fly fishing sites. Gotta love the internet and information age!

I thoroughly enjoy all the pre-planning, researching and adventure of fishing new waters. I'm sure others feel the same way.

Steve

BTW, If you use a guide, I believe you should be prepared to tip based on good service performed (15%-20%).
 
#94 ·
Pretty interesting topic and responses. I've only used a guide twice when I was much younger and I believe my father tipped the guides around $40 or so. Nowadays, after learning to fly fish, I don't even consider using a guide. It seems like cheating to me............., I believe you should be prepared to tip based on good service performed (15%-20%).
:hmmm:Same breath:hmmm:

Well, I have sampled the marketplace. I believe in tipping good guides but not the bad ones.
As most guides are independent they can set their own price. They aren't working for tips like waiters or other professionals so no one should feel obligated to tip all guides. The exception being in situations like bluewater fishing when the deck hands work only for tips. However, in a marketplace where half the guides are just guys that have fished for a few years and have a pretty big egos or just some punk kid that has figured out out to row, it goes a long way to tip those guides that know the waters and work their tail off to get you into fish.
 
#96 ·
Sloan,

I get your point. Although I'm not sure about the "same breath" part. If I was even considering hiring a guide I wouldn't consider just anyone. I'd research him/her extensively before plucking down $350-$400+ for a day of fishing. Rolling the dice on a "kid" or egomaniac with a few years experience would be a nightmare and probably a waste of time and money. Over the years the old adage still rings true: You get what you pay for. Rather than hiring a guide and fishing public waters with everyone else, I've found it best to pay to fish "private" waters. The fishing is always better, not crowded and to boot, costs less than hiring a guide.

I must have missed it, but has anyone here posted that they have gone with a guide and not tipped them? The few people I fish with that use guides several time per year all told me they generally tip between $25-$50 and don't know of anyone in their fly fishing clubs who don't tip. What says the group?

Steve
 
#98 ·
I get your point. Although I'm not sure about the "same breath" part.
It was a joke, referring to the fact that you mentioned that you don't use guides and believe it takes away from the spirit of the sport, then discuss the proper etiquette of tipping guides.
Just a joke, only a joke.
And I've not tipped. But I think if he thought he deserved a tip it was made up in all the the food and drink of mine that he helped himself to.
 
#99 ·
Ok, I get it now. I'm just a lil' slow (product of public education). Not that I care to book a guide, but if I did I would tip proportionate to the level of service received/perceived. Call me a conformist if you will. When you plop down $350+ for a trip, what's another $40 or so if it makes someone's life a lil' better? I have nothing against guides earning a living. I just get more out of the whole planning/logistical part of the fishing trip. Having a plan/trip come together and actually catching fish is the icing on the cake for me.

I do agree with you that the guy eating your food and drinking your drink probably did not deserve a tip. Neither would a guide who showed up late then made me pay for his breakfast and the launch fee. I've heard of a guide who behaved in such a manner.

Steve
 
#100 ·
Randal,

I thought I was finished in this thread, but you motivate me to keep writing. Uh-huh, I'm a cheapskate who tips wait staff, cab drivers, housekeeping some places, and even fishing guides, altho no logical reason has been established for doing so, when comparing that occupation with other service industry occupations and relative pay scales. BTW, I've never taught school, altho I have taught fly casting and maybe some steelhead fishing in a mentorship way. To have forgotten more about the game than I will ever know isn't saying much unfortunately. Trout fishing is a sideline in my fly fishing hobby. Altho I did a brief stint as a guide mainly for the change of pace, it was also to help a friend who was outfitting multi-day steelhead float trips. Altho I wasn't a professional guide of long experience, I was well qualified for the task as I'd done it numerous times on my own and with friends.

Of course I have no idea about the relationships you have with your clients. I don't need or really care to know. I was focusing on Bill Dodd's post and his relationship with his guide. It read odd to me, too much like the relationship turned on the exchange of money, which is precisely why I went extreme and used the hooker analogy, since those relationships typically exist only on the basis of money being exchanged. I said what I did because Mr. Dodd's description didn't come across that way at all to me. So I took some entertainment liberty, literary license if you will, to point that out. I agree completely that mutual respect is the sound basis for a friendship type relationship. Sharing bourbon can easily be a part of that relationship. However the dead presidents aren't shared; that's a one-way street from client to guide - legal tender for services provided. Nothing wrong with that, but the exchange of money generally denotes a business relationship moreso than a friendship.

Lastly, as some point out, I sure hope you aren't the Randal who owns Blue Skies guide service because as PT so aptly points out, it's a lot harder to establish a good business reputation than it is to hurt it. That post probably didn't win any new friends for Blue Skies.

OK, so lastly again, I have no where in this thread advocated not tipping fishing guides. I've even indicated that I have tipped the guides that I hired. I participate in these threads because I'm personally curious how other people think about the subject. Except for noting that tipping is considered customary, not one person has offered up any other rational reason, since guides are not nearly as low paid as wait staff, and many are independent businessmen. But this thread contains a panoply of emotional reasons for tipping guides, and the emotions have run pretty strong at times. Keeping emotions in check can be a good thing. No guide service ought to be harmed by a marginally relevant internet thread.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.
 
#101 ·
well - I don't get it at all:

The way I see it - especially if there's a drift boat thrown in there, with shuttle cars and so forth, and the guy's time and (for some guides, not all) considerable experience and knowledge; $350 (sometimes for up to 2 anglers) is not a whole lot of money for a day's fishing. Either these guys are doing it for occasional fun, or for tips. If there is an expectation for tips - I for one - am not offended by the snarky request in the form of "make sure you tip your guide" remarks on some websites, and even advertisements and preparation lists for trips.

What I am offended by, is calling it a tip in the first place. A tip is not for "good" service, and is not "customary", or "expected". It is for exceptional service, and it is entirely discretionary. So what's exceptional? that's up to you to decide, not this forum. But one example is telling. Another website had a guide participate - who - in addition to boasting about the number of fish he always catches and hawking for clients, remarked about the insistence of a client wanting to do only dry-fly fishing on this home river of his. He proclaimed his dismay about this - apparently not familiar with anything other than soaking san juan worms and prince nymphs, ergo, unfamiliar with jack. Yet many client's don't know jack either, so they wouldn't know the difference and would shower this guy with tips.


This "always" tip thing is a US custom that contorts the meaning of the term - if guides undercharge with an expectation of a tip, it is basically amounts to them working as a volunteer, for fun, or at a loss - and you are simply being made to feel guilty.
 
#102 ·
This right here was an opportunity for me to sit in the front seat with my friend and enjoy a day of being told where to cast. Not on the fly but fishing is fishing. I think it was about 11 or 12 fish to the boat and the guide is a class act. You can call it working or you can call it guiding.. Whatever it is, it's a chance for me to enjoy a day in someone else's boat who knows what the heck he's doing and is worth every penny including a substantial tip.

The first time I fished with him he knew by the end of the day that I'd saved for quite a while just be able to pay his base fee and he probably didn't expect any tip at all. After a couple years we built a relationship and I was in a financial position to tip him a bit and help his bottom line. This past year while fishing with him he found out I was in a pretty crappy business cycle and didn't expect a penny more than his base fee. Also lent me some gear and some knowledge to fish on our own in an area he knew we could walk into and have a good chance.

It's a bit of give and take. If the plumber is working I'm looking the other way. A guide? I'm watching every knot he ties and slot he rows me down. Anyone care to row Hells Half Mile with me?
 
#103 ·
I don't care how much you tip or your reasons behind it. I know what I'm going to do. There's a guide on S Andros who knows I don't have much to offer other than a good cast and maybe he gets a picture with a client holding a nice bonefish. Maybe next year I can throw a couple extra $ at him...
 
#104 ·
Interesting thread, and sort of grotesque at the same time.

I have tipped and not tipped, and been tipped and not been tipped.

If the guide pilots the boat, hands me a store-bought sandwich, and doesn't do much else, that makes for a fee-simple day.

If I come away from the trip with a better understanding of the game, or an insight or angle that I hadn't explored or considered, I tip.

He didn't have to do that, but he did, and I show my appreciation in the universal language of cash.

Anybody can row a boat and tie on flies. Some are decent teachers. Few can enlighten folks without giving away all the secrets of the profession.
 
#106 ·
.....

If the guide pilots the boat, hands me a store-bought sandwich, and doesn't do much else, that makes for a fee-simple day.

If I come away from the trip with a better understanding of the game, or an insight or angle that I hadn't explored or considered, I tip.

He didn't have to do that, but he did, and I show my appreciation in the universal language of cash.

....QUOTE]

wait just a minute....what the heck do you mean "he didn't have to do that". Yes he did. What you are talking about is the definition of true guiding. Anything less than that isn't guiding, and isn't worth the money in the first place. Are you implying that only lousy service should be untipped?
 
#105 ·
A long but good read, Am friends with a few guides back home and its funny to hear how they talk about tips, the ones that work their butts off always pull good tips, and the ones that lack in the profesional department are on the lacking side but the common thing between both groups...................... they appreciate what they get and they don't expect the tips.
Tips are a personal thing you can't tell me as a guide that knowing that the tip was given sincerely dosn't play into it. I have a hard time believing that a guide is going to look down on a $10 tip from a guy that says he has always dreamed of a guided trip and has saved for a year to do it, he is throwing a 20 year old rod and you know that $10 is alot for that guy.

To the comment that points out that they are off for periods of time well there are givens in each proffesion and we choose to accept them when we go into those fields. Lawyers go to court, construction trades slow down in the winter, and guides are going to be seasonal. Its their chosen profession am I supposed to feel bad for them because they made that choice to be a guide? I don't think so.
 
#108 ·
I have a hard time believing that a guide is going to look down on a $10 tip from a guy that says he has always dreamed of a guided trip and has saved for a year to do it, he is throwing a 20 year old rod and you know that $10 is alot for that guy.
Totally true if you are a kickass client, someone I'd love to fish with anyway tipping is not expected, although those clients usually tip the best wich is a double bonus...
 
#111 ·
I would say that, based upon a good job by the guide (not number of fish, but quality of the experience), I'd start with $100 or $50 per client, whichever comes first. Four clients on a trip = $200. That might be high, I don't know, but on a per-client basis it's not much. I have never heard of guides driving Rolls Royces, so I doubt if guiding is a real cash cow, but the times I've been with a guide, I've been fortunate enough to have them treat me like a king, whether my miserable fly casting deserved such praise or not! On those days, if I was alone, they got $100 on top of the fee. I am blessed to have enough to pay for a guide once a year or so, and I always mentally add the tip cost to the up-front fee. We're both happy at the end of the day.

I did give a guide $20 once, at the end of the day, because he yelled at me and attempted to put 3 lines in the water when there were two of us in the boat, and because he made me launch the boat down a cliff ("Push it down and just keep going with it until it hits the water."). Maybe I should not have given him anything, but I thought that the small tip would leave a clearer message than nothing at all - that I WOULD have tipped him more had I enjoyed the experience. It was a long time ago and he wasn't a fly fishing guide, in the interests of full disclosure.
 
#112 ·
Interesting and long thread, suggesting there is no real norm for tipping guides. My 3 cents:

(1) I think there is a significant difference between independent guides and guides working for an outfitter; I suspect in most cases the hired hand might rely on tips more than the independent; but I, like S.g. haven't seen any real guidance. I used to only tip employed haircutters, but not independent business-owning haircutters. Now I tip based on how much I think the haircut (experience and result) was worth. Wait people doing an ok job get 15%, doing a great job get 20% (or some combo thereof depending on the liquour vs. food bill).

(2) I think some people tip large amounts to show how important they are (at least to themselves) and to establish at least an economic dominance over the guide.

(3) The next time I go fishing with an independent guide I'll tip to the extent that my experience exceeded my expectations based on the price agreed upon beforehand; if I feel great, I'll tip great (at least for a cheap SoB), if I feel bored or discouraged I won't tip, if I feel defeated (no fish) but amazed at the effort the guide put out, I'll tip. How much? Depends on the trip & number of clients. 2 clients tipping $20 on a $350 trip is not too bad for the lower end, but 1 client tipping $20 for a $175+ trip seems a little cheap if expectations were exceeded. $100 would be a lot for me, given my income, but I'd pay that for a really great 1-client trip and I would certainly pay $50 for a multiple client tip.

BTW, my greatest guided fishing trip was in Belize for permit with what I thought was a local (from across the street from the basement I was renting for $5/night) in an area not know for great fishing but who turned out to be recently retired from being the hottest bonefish/permit guide in Belize and who brought his still guiding brother along for fun; we didn't speak each other's language, but we had a ball and I caught 2 permit on my 8-wt steelhead rod:thumb: (despite having to cast ceramic crabs weighing a couple of pounds each). Now, when I booked the trip I confused the xchange rate for Guatemalan and Belizean currency and was paying more the 2X what I thought I bargained for (my wife straightened me out on the xchange rate before the trip thank goodness), I offered no tip (having exhausted our entire travel budget!), none was expected even with 2 guides for the price of one, I suspect the rate I payed was slightly lower than what is paid at Teneriffe but was probably still equal to the average annual income of a Belizean Garifuna person ...
 
#113 ·
In my own experience I think that from 10% to 20% is the normal range. I have had guests who did not tip at all, and I thought that maybe they never tip other people anyway. Thats okay. And I have had guests who tipped me well above 20% per day, even on multiple day trips, and they paid for my lodging, dinners and left me with gifts- reels, tackle, lines, flies and boxes, clothing, cameras etc- as well. That pretty much covers the range. Its nice when you tip me- a can always squander the cash on gas and food-. But I dont mind terribly if you dont. I dont treat anyone differently if they tip me or not. I do my best. I try to treat them as my guests, not my clients. Lawyers and businessmen have clients. Some people are easier to guide than others, they listen better, or perhaps they appreciate things etc. Some people can be very hard to serve. I do my best with them anyway.

A tip is a way of saying "thank you". That's all it is- a gratuity, the root of which is Gratis or more fully:Gratitude. In some situations it may be more helpful than in others. A lodge guide may depend upon the weekly tipos just to survive a season. A self employed guide may have some very good days or weeks. And unlike the lodge guide they may have more expenses along the way. And while one may think that they can calculate dollars per hour earned etc, most of that is just inexperienced speculation.

The fact is that many guides, especially self employed guides, do a lot of time on the water unpaid, at least if they are keeping up with things fish and flow wise for their gusests. And how about those winter flood cycles falling on every weekend for a while? Dollars per hour wont work out over the course of a year or a season. People guide for many reasons. If they love doing it, and they treat you well, maybe a tip is in order. How much? Thats up to you. But if you use it like a carrot-on-a stick, or a reward per fish, then you are thinking more like a client and less like a guest.
 
#115 ·
I have always tipped well because it is tradition to do so and in all honesty the guides I have fished with worked their tails off and I felt good about tipping them. That said, if I fished with a guide that gave a half ass effort I would throw tradition out the window and not tip. How many fish are caught isn't part of the equation for me. It is all about the attitude and effort of the guide. Most of the guides I have met take pride in what they do, enjoy their jobs and work very hard. I am sure there are some out there that don't and those guys probably don't deserve anything above and beyond their fee.
 
#116 ·
I'm curious, how do guides and the shops they guide out of split the base fee? I was recently told that there is a significant difference in the split between guides in Washington and Montana with those in Montana keeping significantly more of the fee. I presume that guides work as independent contractors and have to cover their own costs; fuel, insurance, etc.
 
#118 ·
Mike,

In general, a guide takes about 2/3 of the fee(obviously some get paid more, some less). It depends on the outfitter, experience of the guide, the river, location of the river, etc... Obviously a guide with more experience is going to make more. different rivers pay different i.e. if a guide is driving a long ways everyday all season they are probably getting paid more than a guide driving 5 minutes. The other aspect that is often over looked is costs. A guide typically has to cover shuttle, flies, lunch, gas, other odds and ends, and different outfitters cover a different number of these things. From my experience, although guiding in motnana is different than guiding in washington in many ways, to say that guides in montana make more then in washington is inaccurate.
 
#117 ·
Most of the guides that work for an outfitter are independent and pay for their own fuel, shuttle, boats, gear, and the lunch they serve streamside. I'm not sure how much of the fee they get though. I am sure that varies among the different outfitters.
 
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