How much do you tip a guide for a day's services? I'm not asking how much you SHOULD tip, WANT TO tip or WOULD tip you can afford it. How much really comes out of your pocket? Guides: How much do you get - high, low, average?
While I haven't taken more than a couple guided trips in my life, both when I was young enough not to be the one worrying about the tip, I will offer up my 2 cents on this subject.As a point of interest, I'd like to point a few things out. In Idaho, all guides must work for an outfitter. That outfitter owns a permit for fishing or rafting a certain section of river. Those permits have limited number of user days, restrictions regarding type of watercraft (power or float), and some even prohibit the use of watercraft. The permits are limited in number (new ones are rarely issued) and can cost upwards of $100k. Like any other business, outfitters have overhead such as advertising, lodge/office/shop costs, boat and gear replacement, shuttles, lunches, etc.
Now, as a guide working for an outfitter, I guide both whitewater and fishing trips.
First, I'll address rafting trips. I'm up early fixing lunch and preparing the gear for the trip. During the day, I'll negotiate class IV rapids, trying to keep the boat in the fun shit and out of the scary dangerous shit. In between rapids, I do everything from answer questions like "how fast are we going?" to giving short history lessons about the area. I know each rapid, at each different water level, and I have to adjust for skill levels ranging from "there's no reason in hell that I should be out here" to " I guide on the Class V Zambezi croc infested canyon and am here on vacation." Through it all, I do everything in my power to keep my guests safe and entertained. At the end of the day, when you are sipping cold beers and watching the video, I am doing the lunch dishes and washing skunky wetsuits. Throughout the day, I've cooked your lunch and kept you safe in situations where you were oblivious to the danger. On a multi day trip, I do gourmet Dutch oven cooking, set up and break down camp, and entertain guests from sunup to well past sundown. During the day, we'll fish our asses off, run some kickass (sometimes kick-your-ass) whitewater, and have a blast. At the end of the trip, as a client, you have to ask yourself, is 20% too much?
As for fishing trips, I bring my own gear for you to use. It's high quality and well cared for. I purchased it with mostly with tip money. I pay for the shuttle and for the fuel to get you to my favorite water. I pay for or tie my own flies, which I freely hand out for your use. I'll be happy to teach you a skill or two, as long as you want to learn. I'm also the world's best cheerleader and am excited to be there watching you catch fish. I bust my ass to make sure you have FUN.
The bottom line is simple. We guides work in the service industry. Our job is to provide you with a pleasurable fishing/rafting experience. If you don't get that experience because your guide is lazy, don't tip. If your guide busts their ass, tip and tip well.
I'm pretty sure this is where most of my tips come from. :rofl:. Customers can tip based on whether they think the guide is good looking
Salmo,You're free to think guides deserve a tip for a hard day's work, and I'm equally free to wonder what makes fishing guides so different from other service businesses. A plumbing contractor is installing the rough in plumbing this week in the house I'm building. He's an independent contractor and isn't expecting me to tip him for his work, and he works his ass off too. And what about the roofers who nailed the shingles? They aren't expecting tips either. Yet they work damn hard. And the four carpenters who framed my house work like gorillas toting heavy beams and posts and install them perfectly level and plumb. They work hard, are paid by the hour, and aren't expecting tips, although I'm thinking of giving them Christmas gifts, as a gratuity if you will, because I really appreciate the work they've done. However, personally I don't see what makes you or any fishing guide any more deserving of tips than these service trades I mentioned above.
And if you're concerned about ending up with me as your cheap assed client, send me a PM, and I'll do you the favor of never hiring you. I guess I'd prefer to hire a guide who sees tips as a gratuity instead of an entitlement.
Sincerely,
Salmo g.
I suggest you take an economics class. Tipping is used to encourage a "high" level of service in a variable service economy. This includes fishing guides along with waiters/waitresses. We don't tip them because its tradition or customary. We tip them because their service is variable. The incentive of a tip increases the chance of excellent service over just great service. You don't tip for any other reason...not because of skill or how much they are paid. People that don't get this never will. Its actually really simple. Your points only make sense in the land of Bizzaro where economic principles don't apply. Comparing Guides to Tradesman only works in economics 101 in this land of Bizzaro. Carpentry, Plumbing is a commodity....thats why there are unions....thats why there is a union wage.....because variable service is not expected.....you simply get the job done to code.....if one union plumber is sick that day you can fill the job with the other. People not from planet Bizzaro know that tipping can and most likely ensures service better than excellent and is welcome when we only get a few days a year to fish with a guide or experience a nice restaurant.I apologize for misspelling your name Keven. Your post #139 seems heartfelt and makes a lot of sense.
In my initial, much longer draft of my post #129 I went into a lot more detail and one long explanation I edited out was that I am not objecting to any particular person, only commenting on the attitude of entitlement which is so obvious in this thread...despite all claims to the contrary. Nothing personal.
There was no intention of a personal attack, and yet if you were upset enough to send me a venomous PM then I guess I hit a nerve.
I suggest you go back to my posts, imagine we're sitting at a boat launch bullshitting after a long day's fishing, and read my posts out loud in a friendly tone of voice, because that's how they are intended.
Let me clarify "talking out of one's ass". There seems to be a lot of emotional attachment here to a practice (tipping) which ultimately disempowers or subordinates the person receiving it. Yet because the recipient is getting money, it will be defended to the last and you'll even get upset about it in the process. I'm just asking you to take an objective look at that. Getting upset about it only proves my point further.
I stand by my suggestion-be up front, ask for what you're worth and decline the tip for professional reasons. Empower yourself. If a client insists on paying more, tell him to donate the money to CCA or WSC. Then questions and 5-page threads about the issue will become moot.
I'm out of this one. sorry, _G...guess I pissed on the hornet's nest.
are you referring to our trip to the ronde? i thought you were the guide for that?? :rofl:I did have a guy once who was an asshole, but taught me a lot....sure was worth the tip i gave him
The difference is VARIABLE SERVICE. Floating down a river with a guide results in variable service. A guide can do alot of things in that float to provide variable service to increase you enjoyment. He can row bank to bank more....He can make a better lunch....he can change more flies.....he can have better equipment.....he do all sorts of things. An accountant cannot provide variable service when doing your taxes. Tipping him will not result in a better number thus making your experience better. I think what is "pissing" people off is the analogy you are using for your argument is not correct.Well Brett, that would be a useful thing to look at.
I don't know of any consultants who are tipped on a regular basis. They charge what they're worth up front. I imagine some might be insulted if you offered a tip.
when I try to list folks who can reasonably expect a gratuity with many/most transactions,
I think of waitresses, doormen, bellhops at the airport, cab drivers, maids...help me out here, are there some folks on the technical/professional tier who get tips too?
BTW, I've tipped every guide and deckhand without fail, because when in Rome you do as the Romans do...which I think entitles me to ask the simple theoretical question I am asking.
the dichotomy here is this-guides claiming to be specialists of a sort, and professionals, but subscribing to a pay structure that screams "service industry" like the other jobs I mentioned above.
What seems to be pissing everyone off is that I say if you are a professional, a consultant, and you have high-level skills to offer, then consider structuring your business practice, including fee-for-service, along the same lines.
also BTW, I have a lot of respect for guides, their knowledge, what they do; but we wouldn't be a forward-thinking forum if we didn't question the assumptions of our sport once in awhile, would we?
peace,
Bob