in search of a perfect loop

yuhina

Tropical member
Mark, I have to agree with Salmo g, but I believe you have good intentions.

I have found skagit casting to be fairly easy, probably because I began spey casting with a double taper then graduated to xlt and other long belly lines. I find casting skagit heads easy and comfortable if I remember to slow down, keep my elbows in close, make shorter motions and use my left hand. I don't necessarily find it important to form a tight loop, although I like a tight loop for scandi casting. I woudn't say it's simple to do, because I see many people struggling with their skagit casting. Most appear to be having problems forming a D loop or they might not have a properly matched line and tip for their rod.

If you watch Ed he is relaxed and takes his time making the cast, you appear to hurry.
Hi Verne,

I agree with you. Regarding skagit casting is easier compare to XLT or Carron, IF the goal is to make a reasonable fishing cast. However, I have to say all good casts are all difficult to master. Particularly in different kind of fishing conditions. Otherwise, we will just see skagit masters everywhere.

Regarding to perfect loop and tight loop comment, I think it is true that casting heavy sinktip and fly in tight loop is not a very good idea. Instead, a energized and wider loop is a better option. The main reason I used Ed's casting video in the first post is because his style is the most obvious Non-Straight Line Rod Tip Path, (a.k.a Round Path). His casting loop in the video (post #1) is reasonable tight, and energized. But the idea of this thread is about how rounded rod tip path also can generate tight loops. In addition to Ed's videos, I also provided other video demonstrations from other casters (Josh, Tellis) to help illustrating the idea behind round rod tip path and loop shape.
Hope this explain...

Mark
 
Mark, many years ago I learned to make an oval motion with the rod in casting with a shooting head which improved my casting at the time. In spey casting you make an oval motion as well as raising to form the D loop, but I believe the forward motion is straight. I guess I'm still confused about your circular cast is it similar to the oval arm/rod motion? I really can't visualize it too well from the videos.
 

yuhina

Tropical member
Mark, many years ago I learned to make an oval motion with the rod in casting with a shooting head which improved my casting at the time. In spey casting you make an oval motion as well as raising to form the D loop, but I believe the forward motion is straight. I guess I'm still confused about your circular cast is it similar to the oval arm/rod motion? I really can't visualize it too well from the videos.
Hi Verne,

The oval arm/rod motion you mentioned here is like snake roll cast? if this is the case, then I believe you are talking about the D loop formation. D loop formation indeed is much easier to use the rotational lift to generate the "high D"which is more upward shape "D", compare to the "falling" D. Formation of the D loop is the movement before the forward stroke. In this thread, we are mainly focusing on the forward stroke. However, I think some people also mentioned that SLP during/ or right after the D formation movement also is important. I don't have too much interests in the D formation, so I assume people are all focusing on the forward stroke. And this is the FFF's main instruction principle. SLP on the forward stroke to form a tight loop. I think if we can picture a snake roll cast, we can all agree a round motion during the D loop formation is reasonable and acceptable. The problem and argument lies on the forward stroke. Most people think SLP is necessary. I think it is optional, a round rod tip path also can achieve tight loop and the key is using overhang. Let me know...

Mark
 
Mark, Thanks, I'll experiment next time I cast, I'll also experiment with using more overhang. I'm comfortable with my casting, but I'm always willing to try something new.
 

yuhina

Tropical member
Mark, Thanks, I'll experiment next time I cast, I'll also experiment with using more overhang. I'm comfortable with my casting, but I'm always willing to try something new.
Hey Verne,

Thanks for bringing up some good points. Now, I realize which part I did not communicate well...
I will have to work on my writings more...bawling:

On last weekend, me and a group of people also experimented the different overhang lengths and how this factor influence the timing of the forward stroke. We found the timing is very sensitive and crucial when using longer overhang, although the longer overhang really showed up this "rotational acceleration effect" in the video well (Jerry's cast, post #293). One of the reasons you see I was a bit rush in the casting stroke is because I was trying to exaggerate this overhang rotational effect. This more compact and accelerating top hand movement also has its value during the windy condition, the extra oomps line speed will help the loop to cut through the wind better. If you can go back to see the Josh Linn's video (post #82), he also demonstrate this high speed top hand acceleration. Let me know...

Mark
 
What Verne is referring to is a cast that was used by Lee Wulf and others called an oval cast and has nothing to do with a snake roll but is like a switch cast or spey cast without the anchor (which Mark is somthing that I eluded too concerning the videos that you posted, not saying you dont anchor but look at where you anchor, but you are done posting about this so.........)
Overhang is a great thing, if you really want to blow your mind try a straight line Path cast with 4-6 feet of overhang, nothing new but then again lots of things happened pre 2009.
Spoke to Josh by the way and he does not normally cast that way but was doing what he had to in order to make the rod in question work and for the record he does not hit the water with his rod on every cast:thumb:
 

yuhina

Tropical member
What Verne is referring to is a cast that was used by Lee Wulf and others called an oval cast and has nothing to do with a snake roll but is like a switch cast or spey cast without the anchor (which Mark is somthing that I eluded too concerning the videos that you posted, not saying you dont anchor but look at where you anchor, but you are done posting about this so.........)
Overhang is a great thing, if you really want to blow your mind try a straight line Path cast with 4-6 feet of overhang, nothing new but then again lots of things happened pre 2009.
Spoke to Josh by the way and he does not normally cast that way but was doing what he had to in order to make the rod in question work and for the record he does not hit the water with his rod on every cast:thumb:
Bruce,

Please take my apology about be littling you have limited knowledge about skagit casting. I know you have plenty of experience and You know I was coming back from your ET joke.

Lee Wulff's oval cast is a fine example that how single handed caster can learn spey/switch cast quickly. I am totally agree with you! That's the way I bring up the "back casting" of spey to the new comers. The up lifting motion is also very similar to the snake roll... the reason I brought that up to Verne was just to making sure we are on the same page.

Overhang with 4-6 feet is what we play normally... Jerry is also very specialized on the extra long overhang 6-10 feet (He was a tournament caster, so you know what I am talking about here), so there is no surprises to me that he can pick up the rotational acceleration in 5 minutes. He has been doing this without noticing it. All I need is to mention stop the rod tip low and delay the line releasing. He was doing the fast acceleration as natural as you won't believe. The video did not show up the results well, because of the bad weather. I will try to shoot more next time.

Mark
 
Mark as a tournament caster he should know the limitations of a low delivery of the line, high trajectory is where its at in tournament casting. AsI mentioned before, I was wondering what you thought was optimal overhang, as it appears you have but 1-3 feet.
BTW it was not Lee wulffs cast, and wulffs triangle taper lines were based on, stolen from.........well I can tell you it wasnt Ed:rofl:
Another trick you can try Mark on your top hand slp cast is to twist your top hand wrist on the forward stroke and see what happens but dont tell anyone its a big secret and is so new it is fresh out the oven:clown: videos and drawings to follow
 
I said I'd get some video up...and here it is! Windy day, had a hard time keeping the camera on a rock. See attached it's a 50 second bit salvaged from 5min of video. Fortunatley after about 3min of nothing the wind blew the camera back part way to catch some of my casting...then blew off.

By the way I didn't get a video of my experimental line, but it did cast pretty well...once I got the deeply sunk head out of the water. Doubled pretty well but had to roll it up first to perform a single.

I know the video is pretty poor, I'll try again on a sunny day.

James.
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
strong work on a windy day, did you try a spiral pickup? corkscrew the head out?
had a hard time seeing the rod tip, but your hands say, "midbelly sinktip":thumb:
 
strong work on a windy day, did you try a spiral pickup? corkscrew the head out?
had a hard time seeing the rod tip, but your hands say, "midbelly sinktip":thumb:
Tried but the water the run I was in when I had the experimental set up was kind of a back eddy and was just sucking my line down. I should have tried it in this run but I wanted to get some video of my standard setup (65' head including 15'Tip) before the lights went out. It was really windy but I don't mind practicing in the wind, prepares me for real world fishing.