in search of a perfect loop

Greg Holt

Active Member
"bending into the butt on the lift is something I'm going to focus on for a bit."--Don't do it, lift with legs, man, the legs, or you'll hurt your back!

I mentioned in another thread how I wasn't getting the butt out early enough, that vid right there shows the lift I want to perfect. Been giving a lot of thought to lift lately, esp. as concerns overhang. I managed a cast with 15' of overhang on a 15' rod Monday, but I acquired some knowledge to go with the hernia.
When I said James' vid spoke to casting a sinktip on a longer head, I was seeing the effort and exaggerated lift energy required to free the tip. I experience the same challenge when thigh to waist deep, I don't know how the UK guys can do it with fullsinks. I know with Tay/Tummel style they pull some of the head in and shoot it back into the D loop, which is fascinating/tricky to try. Bending into the butt on the lift is something I'm going to focus on for a bit, thanks for the insight Buce.

Greg Holt

Active Member
Yes, indeed. Thoughtless of me to overlook such a fine contribution. That implies there are others, and a list should be posted of the all-star contributions.
Feel free to submit suggestions, including your own--just avoid attempting to stuff the ballot box...

hey, I vote for saving post #344 too, a kickass vid clip and a link to an awesome UK thread together.


still an authority on nothing
there's been a lot of fine contributions, but many have been ignored.
there's been some superawesome casters who haven't gotten involved because they didn't want to dirty themselves, and I respect that. 25 pages, yeesh.

There's awesome casters who go all day with a minimum of effort, arrive back at the truck feeling really good; those guys have secrets to share about how this thing really goes. We are talking about the mechanics of a sport, and not all of us are lithe young bucks. Making a fishable cast with a minimum of effort is the essence of both fulcrum casting and Al Buhr's methods, not to mention Ed Ward's and basically every other practical casting technique.

Alexander Grant would be rolling in his grave right now.


Tropical member
Mark, I really think this post is a good example of why the way you have communicated has not been received graciously by everyone. As if we are a group of students that need to figure out what you have already been enlightened to, or that we are recipients of a gift you may or may not decide to lay upon us. I think most everyone here is open minded, and I certainly don't think you should't dive into casting mechanics and analyze to your heart's content,....but you didn't present any of this as an idea you've been kicking around that you wanted to bounce off a group of peers. You presented everything as hard and fast "findings"....that unfortunately, we must just be too dim to understand if we don't agree with you.
Hi Brady,

After sit down and re-read some of my posts again, I have to agree with you. I have this problem in some of my posts. Whether it is intentional to tease particular personnel or unintentional to make a disrespect post to some. Though, the "gift" post is mainly to use to tease a particular group of people, and it seems it worked. However, internet is a admixture and complex community, it's impossible to target a particular person, or group. The power might "spill over" and affect other unintentional targets. On top of this, people don't usually read from the first paragraph... and usually don't follow "the themes" very well... In addition, people come here also with different kind of "pre" experience and pre "mind set".

For instance, in my case, I don't like your responses in the previous thread (my light line casting thread) (pre- mindset), and I also don't like your Erroneous Transfer interpretation (knowing the fact that you have less input in this thread), so it all "adds up" and made me post this teasing response to act like you are my student. I am sure you know where is my negative energy came from. and I am sure I have some other posts in the past also "adds up" to make you say all of this.

As an attitude about "posting a question/ a puzzle and seek for reasoning and for discussion" from the public, the intensions has two folds, 1) to lead the discussion back to the focus, 2) to enhance the "process" of group thinking. I admit, my wordings were not appropriate sometime, as Steve point out my communication ability is limited. I still will have to improve that in the future.

And talk about Bruce K. He is a good friend of mine. (Maybe I should use "was" now.bawling:) He has some "mind-set" issue too... A good caster, and a good guy, see how much good information he decided to put in in the last few posts!:thumb: but "the problem" ( I guess you can call it problem) between the friendship between me and him, is that he seems particularly "interested" in teasing me. "Whatever Yuhina says I got to hit it." There are many things I can point out and show them to the public, but I don't want to, because I know he is just like to tease me. And be honest with you, sometime I quite enjoy his teasing posts...:rolleyes: But again, this is the internet, the vast recipients might not see the contexts and "the whole theme".. so it adds up all the miscommunications. It might start just a fun joke, but then it rolled into a real flame war if I did not keep my alert up (a.k.a my brain snap).

Regardless all those miscommunication,

What I try to say here?... I actually really appreciate you point out some of my attitude is inappropriate on the web. I sincerely take that as a good advice and will be more careful next time. Thank You!




Tropical member
Since everyone is posting videos, I decide to post one of a real master of the cast.
Now what do you think this cast shows?

Also check out this discussion....

Maybe ET should = End This!! :)
Hi Dan,

Thanks for the link! It actually reminded me I have to buy Al Buhr's book... always wanted to, and always forgot... order now!
The fulcrum concept indeed is a crucial element in fly casting. But it is so confusing... below is the link of good example of how confusing it could be. But there is one concept to solve the debating (the concept I also used in this thread), if you have time , you might want to read through it:rolleyes:... (you might want to pay more attention to Mr.g' posts) take care! Mark;f=14;t=14013
In case you missed this Mark...........

To me this will be the Quote of the year even though I believe it is from 2011.

`An interesting discussion but one which like so many others on forums leaves me sad.

Two opposing trains of thought, one held by people with real skill/talent, huge practical experience based on years of thought and practice and willing to share this with others.

The other a group of theorists who most likely haven't proved themselves in the trenches so to speak.

To use video clips of great casters out of context is of little benefit to the discussion and confusing to those following who know no better.`

I also noticed you have your long belly lines for sale in the classifieds, that is too bad as I thought that there might be hope of you learning something. No teasing in this remark but the simple fact that longer lines expose casting faults like no other lines and when learned to use properlly lead to better all around casting skills.


Tropical member
In case you missed this Mark...........

I also noticed you have your long belly lines for sale in the classifieds, that is too bad as I thought that there might be hope of you learning something. No teasing in this remark but the simple fact that longer lines expose casting faults like no other lines and when learned to use properlly lead to better all around casting skills.
Hey Brother!

I still have the Carron 10/11 75' and Sage 1016
the for sale is shorter one!! : )

take care,



Active Member
Mark, stop while you're way behind. You can't save face anymore. You have gone beyond foolishness into the realm of circus spectacle. Any respect waning in page 1 has know turned into embarrassing contempt. Here's an analogy for ya: you are a novice cart racer trying to instruct Indi car racers on how to drive. These modest formula 1 pros humor you by trying to offer advice to this young racing tike. His arrogance only makes him drive faster until he crashes into the wall. The pros shake their head and smile in unfortunate disbelief. The young man learns nothing. He jumps into another go-cart and resumes his foolishness.

Please don't PM me, I have nothing further to discuss with you. Peace
Mark, I'm glad you were able to stand back and see how many of your responses were interpreted by others,....which in turn probably helped form the negative responses that came back at you. My input in this thread waned because early on we had a fundamental disagreement about what each of us were seeing in the same video, Ed's forward cast - which you continue to see as rotational to the point of power being applied as the tip travels down, whereas I see follow through and deflection (no power being applied). Then you would say watch again closer, so....I didn't feel we could make any headway. Also, I figured the likes of Bruce, Aaron, Speyforsteel(Greg),..guys with real experience and credentials, are much better equipped to debate the finer points with you than I. Credentials don't mean everything,.....but they mean a hell of a lot.