Mt Rainier Tragedy Opens Nonsense Debate

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Salmo_g

Well-Known Member
#76
Being armed does not insure a safe outcome. Ranger Anderson was armed and well trained at Quantico, the FBI Academy. I was reminded that this also means trained to assume the worst whenever a car blows past any kind of checkpoint, even when it's just for snow tires. Yet Barnes was able to stop near her road block and draw, aim, and fire his rifle hitting Anderson multiple times before she could act. He also shot at, and missed the ranger following behind. Sometimes things go wrong.

As for the former law prohibiting firearms in national parks, it dates to the early years of the national park system and was directed at reducing poaching of wildlife. Law or no law, it makes no difference when a criminal suspect comes into the park.

Sg
 
#77
Why is this post not about how there needs to be a better debriefing program for people exiting the military (honorable and dishonorable)? I dont see how a person can come back from war and live like a normal person. Obviously this guy was pretty screwed up. I mean afterall, he did get a ticket for poaching and based on the amount of poaching and illegal fishing I see and call into the hotline for, you would have to be pretty stupid to actually be cited for it. Also, this may seem a bit off color but does anyone know if he had a WDFW parking pass, Discover pass, or a U.S. forest pass when he parked his vehicle?
 
#78
I know the constitution has been amended but there has never been a fundamental change like making gun ownership a privilege rahter than a right.Imo if the Const is a living breathing document than it has no value at all.Framing it in such a way gives any one in power the ability twist it into any form they wish.Like making gun ownership a privilege.
 

freestoneangler

Not to be confused with Freestone
#79
Well, here's the problem with AK Powder Monkey's statement,
& that is one of the very facts that he, himself observed, the deranged ex GI is/was, a "trained" killer, as that is exactly what the military trains you to do, they are responsible to train you for the taking of lives of a targeted enemy, even though we veterans are "all" supposed to be expected to return to our society, & behave as if none of the military's training ever took place, with the exception of the value's of discipline, & the knowledge gained through Advanced Infantry Training in our given fields of expertise, &/or, fields of occupation, that we also were taught in the same military that teaches us how to take lives, has most of us vets, very carefully weighing the choices of what is expected to be considered sane, vs insane. Most of us make it, back into civilian life, but some are considered to be rewired/damaged goods, and everyone of us has gone through the process of being changed in our lives by our experiences during the time served in the military. And who is to say who would be the next victim? I was trained to adapt to ever changing scenario's of living, working all day then pulling guard duty three to four nights a week, living in the field under the conditions of warfare, as training for the real thing, & after re-enlisting & moving to the Berlin Bde., I was sent to a 2 week crash course for Explosives & Demolition school, & came out 8th in a class of 200, because I screwed off the whole 1st week. Otherwise I'd have probably been selected #2, as there was 1 guy that had already worked in an EOD outfit, & he was the sharpest of all of us.
So why would they send a wheel & track vehicle mechanic to such a school? Simple, because if the Russians had decided to invade West Berlin, they had 4 Russian Armored divisions just to the northeast of their section of the divided city, & there would be no need for a mechanic, as our life expectancy would range from 45 minutes to possibly three days, depending on the strength of the assault on the city.

Even though I do not have a stash, or cache of items for equal effects of demolition of a total destruction of targets, there are several other methods of removing/damaging buildings, roads, bridges, train trestles, & water/electric plants, etcetera. I have friends that work in the drug task force here & there across the nation that I have spoken with, & gave warnings for targets of easy access. I know when, where, & how I would do a city/metropolitan area, or region, because if you can shut down, or even have your enemy lock down a city of any size for very long, you can instill a real threat of safety. So I spread the word to a few of them as to what they should also be looking for, in case of another terrorist attack.
And I am only one person, not a team of anarchist's/terrorists. One person on a given mission could have the ability to shut down a city the size of Chicago in a week's time, as it would take that long to place detrimental objects of destruction in a manner that would stop any traffic in/out of, or through the city, because of its make-up of having many interconnecting interstates coinciding at certain given junctions. And you would have to go many miles to bypass the city because of the very design of it's infrastructure, which would not only seal off the city effectively, but also interrupt traffic flow of freight, goods, & services throughout the country for days, if not weeks.

It is something that has to be considered, but hopefully common sense will prevail in the political arena in the area of the carrying of weapons, anywhere, not just in NP's. The 2nd amendment is not an outdated piece of literature, & should not be treated as if it is an archaic, useless piece of legislation. It was mandated by the forefathers of our nation to be a source of last resort force, in the protection of it's citizens, their rights, & for the procurement of food.
A sharpened pencil can become just as deadly of a weapon, @ close range, as a fully automatic weapon.

Just my 2 cents, John E. Osman III
Wow, I'm not sure whether WTF or HFS is the appropriate response :eek:

I do however wholeheartedly agree with the last paragraph. Well, perhaps still on the fence about the use of a gun to procure food... pretty sure that's still a crime at Safeway ;)
 

Mark Moore

Just a Member
#82
Gun owners like to talk in sober terms about the high responsibility of gun ownership, and yet in this country we allow any lunatic to purchase a gun. This is a contradiction that is hard to rationalize. Ideally, we'd be able to make gun ownership less of an unfettered right and more of a priviledge for those who actually demonstrate a level of responsibility appropriate to gun ownership.
This is substantially how I feel about Voting Rights.......
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#83
Well, here's the problem with AK Powder Monkey's statement,
& that is one of the very facts that he, himself observed, the deranged ex GI is/was, a "trained" killer, as that is exactly what the military trains you to do, they are responsible to train you for the taking of lives of a targeted enemy, even though we veterans are "all" supposed to be expected to return to our society, & behave as if none of the military's training ever took place, with the exception of the value's of discipline, & the knowledge gained through Advanced Infantry Training in our given fields of expertise, &/or, fields of occupation, that we also were taught in the same military that teaches us how to take lives, has most of us vets, very carefully weighing the choices of what is expected to be considered sane, vs insane. Most of us make it, back into civilian life, but some are considered to be rewired/damaged goods, and everyone of us has gone through the process of being changed in our lives by our experiences during the time served in the military. And who is to say who would be the next victim? I was trained to adapt to ever changing scenario's of living, working all day then pulling guard duty three to four nights a week, living in the field under the conditions of warfare, as training for the real thing, & after re-enlisting & moving to the Berlin Bde., I was sent to a 2 week crash course for Explosives & Demolition school, & came out 8th in a class of 200, because I screwed off the whole 1st week. Otherwise I'd have probably been selected #2, as there was 1 guy that had already worked in an EOD outfit, & he was the sharpest of all of us.
So why would they send a wheel & track vehicle mechanic to such a school? Simple, because if the Russians had decided to invade West Berlin, they had 4 Russian Armored divisions just to the northeast of their section of the divided city, & there would be no need for a mechanic, as our life expectancy would range from 45 minutes to possibly three days, depending on the strength of the assault on the city.

Even though I do not have a stash, or cache of items for equal effects of demolition of a total destruction of targets, there are several other methods of removing/damaging buildings, roads, bridges, train trestles, & water/electric plants, etcetera. I have friends that work in the drug task force here & there across the nation that I have spoken with, & gave warnings for targets of easy access. I know when, where, & how I would do a city/metropolitan area, or region, because if you can shut down, or even have your enemy lock down a city of any size for very long, you can instill a real threat of safety. So I spread the word to a few of them as to what they should also be looking for, in case of another terrorist attack.
And I am only one person, not a team of anarchist's/terrorists. One person on a given mission could have the ability to shut down a city the size of Chicago in a week's time, as it would take that long to place detrimental objects of destruction in a manner that would stop any traffic in/out of, or through the city, because of its make-up of having many interconnecting interstates coinciding at certain given junctions. And you would have to go many miles to bypass the city because of the very design of it's infrastructure, which would not only seal off the city effectively, but also interrupt traffic flow of freight, goods, & services throughout the country for days, if not weeks.

It is something that has to be considered, but hopefully common sense will prevail in the political arena in the area of the carrying of weapons, anywhere, not just in NP's. The 2nd amendment is not an outdated piece of literature, & should not be treated as if it is an archaic, useless piece of legislation. It was mandated by the forefathers of our nation to be a source of last resort force, in the protection of it's citizens, their rights, & for the procurement of food.
A sharpened pencil can become just as deadly of a weapon, @ close range, as a fully automatic weapon.

Just my 2 cents, John E. Osman III
No, no, no. Just because someone served time in the military, even as warfighter, does not make them capable of this indiscriminate crime against another human. There is a difference and the difference is clear in my mind. If it is not clear in yours, perhaps you should seek help from a mental health professional before there are more stories in the newspaper. I have the ability to make decisions about the outcome of an event. That which I can control and choose to control is as much a part of me as anything else.

This criminal act against another human was not in a war zone with all the survival senses on high alert. It was a senseless homocide by someone who was broken. All service members, current and past, are not the same. It is insulting to make such an associative generalization.
 

Upton O

Blind hog fisherman
#84
In support of Ed (aka Mumbles) comment, the VAST majority of veterans, especially combat vets, avoid violence at all costs. They've seen enough to last many lifetimes. In the case of the veteran of subject, there are many, many questions that need to be answered to get insight into his erratic, crazy behavior. I worked with hundreds of combat vets over a 24 year career as a therapist, there is more that meets the eye in this case. There are personal history questions that need to be examined and, given his extreme body building focus, I would ask about steroid use (a serious problem in some locations in the military), also use of other substances. There is also the possible issue of traumatic brain injury which is the "syndrome of Iraq" for the current veteran population similar to what PTSD was for the Vietnam era.

As for outreach for military personnel and veterans, the biggest issue is mistrust of anything government. The military is shifting, albeit slowly, in it's approach to helping active duty folks in their struggles. The VA has an active, though frequently ineffective, outreach program for veterans. (If you were a combat veteran would you try to walk into the behemoth VA hospital in Seattle and try to ask a total stranger how you get help in resolving the most horrible experiences of your life?)

There are a number of combat vets on this forum, they own weapons and, as civilians, have never pointed them at another human let alone pulled the trigger. You won't even know they are carrying.

You know what scares the crap out of me? It isn't veterans with firearms, it's all of the idiots with their "smart phones" texting while they are driving 4000+ lb vehicles at 40+ mph thinking they aren't impaired and dangerous. And I have to deal with these IDIOTS daily.
 

Brian White

Recovering Bugmeister
#85
I know the constitution has been amended but there has never been a fundamental change like making gun ownership a privilege rahter than a right.Imo if the Const is a living breathing document than it has no value at all.Framing it in such a way gives any one in power the ability twist it into any form they wish.Like making gun ownership a privilege.
Not trying to start a separate thread but the Bill of Rights itself - which among other things included the 2nd Amendment and as a general statement was filled with some pretty big ticket items - was not part of the Constitution when ratified in 1787. It was not ratified until 1791. Additionally, amendments themselves (27 ratified to date over the last few hundred years) are by definition considered changes to "fundamental law" in the U.S. I may have misread Richard O's post - and yours so apologies in advance if that is the case - but that seems to goes to the very heart of his point.

I wonder if women and African-Americans would agree with the contention that there haven't been any fundamental changes in the foundations of U.S. law since the late 18th century? I will dig up my jock and hard cup out of my closet and then go ask my wife :)

Happy New Year everyone! Disappointed in myself that I added to this thread instead of spending the time daydreaming about fly-fishing...
 

Alex MacDonald

that's His Lordship, to you.....
#87
Interesting thought from some of you: Since last year, firearms are permitted at national parks IF they are concealed and carried by those of us who have CCW permits. I pack mine in Yellowstone, Glacier, and most other places as well. The NPS policy change was forced upon them most likely because of the Heller decision.

I recall three women being raped and murdered in Yosemite almost a decade ago. My question then-as it is now, is if they would still have become victims if they'd been armed. Study the responses of criminals concerning their feelings about concealed carry, and you'll find the huge majority of them will go elsewhere, quickly.

Questioning if the Constitution is somehow an outmoded document since it dates from the 18th century however, is a simplistic, common question. The answer lies in a study of the philosophy involved in the creation of the document. That, I find, is timeless.
 

FT

Active Member
#88
Seems like most folks have gotten it wrong. The gun is the culprit. It loaded itself, put itself in the shooter's vehicle, put itself in the shooter's hand, pointed itself at the ranger, and then pulled its own trigger to shoot and kill the ranger. Just like all its cousin guns do whenever someone (or some animal) gets shot and killed. Heck they even shoot themselves at clay targets, bulls eyes, traffic signs, billboards, glass bottles, cans, etc. No siree, ya just can't trust them guns atall!!!
 
#89
I apologize in advance for raising a trivial side issue to this important thread about two tragedies. Does anybody else want to raise objection to the fact that the Park Service closed this important National Park for about a week. Why? Of course they had a moving "crime scene" to examine. But since it was a straightforward incident involving few people, why couldn't that have been done in 24 hours? Once again acting as though they own the people's park that they supervise, dozens of Park Svc. employees gave themselves an unscheduled vacation, at the expense of hundreds of the public.
 
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