Absolutely Fishing Related: Congrats Bush Voters

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by ray helaers, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

    Sep 12, 2001
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    Hey Flyn' - I don't think anyone in their right mind is advocating pulling down every dam on the Columbia and Snake. First of all, it couldn't be done because 26 of the 55 dams on these rivers are privately owned. What some of us want is to think seriously about breaching some or all of the four lower Snake River dams. (Note that Columbia/Snake salmon and steelhead runs have crashed by 90% since these dams were built in the 1960s. Moreover, something like 50% of all Columbia River fish originate or historically originated from the Snake and its tributaries. Obviously, the dams are the major reason for the decline and - though the feds are trying to convince us otherwise - a major impediment to meaningful, long-term recovery of wild Columbia/Snake salmon and steelhead.) According to the BPA, the four lower Snake dams have about a 3500 megawatt production capacity, which is roughly 15 - 16% of the total production capacity of the roughly 30 dams owned by the Army Corps and Bureau of Reclamation on the Columbia/Snake rivers. The BPA markets power from all the federally owned dams on the Columbia/Snake. BPA represents somewhere between 45 - 50% of the total energy production in the Pacific Northwest, and since some BPA power comes from sources other than dams, the four lower Snake dams probably represent about 6 - 8% of PNW power production. That is nothing to sniff at, of course, but it should not be that difficult - using a combination of efficiency initiatives and other production sources - to make up for the lost production capacity without major impacts to the price of electricity in our region. Look, the days of building hydro dams are dead (anyone who doesn't recognize that needs to wake up). All new energy production in this region is going to come from other sources. Most of the new sources in the West now consist of natural gas-fired plants. Gas-fired plants representing many multiples of 3500 megawatts have either come on line in the last few years or are being built. I'm not a huge fan of gas-fired plants, but what I'm saying is that finding that 3500 megawatts is not as difficult as you make it sound. Sure, it's a real problem and would cost money, but even the feds, in the Columbia/Snake biological opinion (which has now taken dam removal off the table), estimate that their hodge podge of techno fixes to keep the lower Snake dams around are going to cost $6 billion over the next 10 years. I guarantee you we could build 3500 megawatts worth of production for a hell of a lot less than $6 billion. That $6 billion represents a MASSIVE SUBSIDY to agricultural interests that are growing crops where naturally crops don't belong, to the barging industry, which ships agricultural and other products along rivers that have perfectly adequate railroads streamside, and to waterskiers. It is also a massive subsidy to our electricity rates here in the PNW. Maybe the rest of the country would not be all that thrilled about throwing $6 billion our way just so we in the PNW can continue to pay lower electricity rates than the rest of our fellow Americans. But anyway, to answer your question, I'll be happy to raise my hand to cut back my electricity use to pave the way for this.
  2. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    Apr 21, 2004
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    bothell township
    some of us are so pathetic. we sit here pretending to love these fish and pretending to embrace conservation but as soon as someone blasts the policies of this rogue administration, wham, we find out where people's true loyalties lie. all of a sudden you take up arms to protect "your side" when he's really the biggest threat in the world right now to many things we all pretend to love so much.

    you may have voted for him but face the friggin facts his policies are killing these fish and his policies are going to ruin it all for our children's children. are you all too blinded by the our side/their side debate to accept this? you act like its simply a matter of dividing the FFishing community, BS! it's about taking offense to what we point out about your chosen administration. when you blacked out that little square next to his name, you voted for the 80% reduction, you voted for the hatchery/wild steelhead policies. perhaps you voted for him primarily because you advocate his stance on american imperialism and the unnecessary killing of thousands or maybe it is his tax breaks to the rich and huge corporations, maybe that $150 tax refund you got in the mail clinched your vote, I dont know, but what you forgot about was the rest of the world: the environment, the fish etc.

    Bush was the overwhelming choice when "morality" was the biggest issue to voters, he was also extremely popular with the christians. did a lot of people vote for him simply based on his proffessed faith? you bet your ass they did. i met alot of them. why is he viewed as more moral? because people view clinton as immoral, nothing more. i guess our sense of morality as a nation doesn't regard the open destruction and disregard for GODS natural world, nor the needless killing of thousands and lying about it, nor a lawsuit to stop a recount as immoral. all we know is that we hate homosexuals, we want to make money no matter what the expense to the environm,ent and we should spare no cost in life and money to carry out the military manifestation of one man.
  3. Monk

    Monk Redneck

    Sep 20, 2004
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    Marblemount, WA
    "all of a sudden you take up arms to protect "your side" when he's really the biggest threat in the world right now to many things we all pretend to love so much.

    you may have voted for him but face the friggin facts his policies are killing these fish and his policies are going to ruin it all for our children's children. are you all too blinded by the our side/their side debate to accept this?"

    Who did this? :confused:
  4. Monk

    Monk Redneck

    Sep 20, 2004
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    Marblemount, WA
    Since you feel the need to question my devotion to the fish let me ask you this. Are you taking the chance at a pot shot at "the other side" despite the negative repercussion the fish might feel due to a rift in the FF community? It's a double edged sword there pal.
  5. Monk

    Monk Redneck

    Sep 20, 2004
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    Marblemount, WA
    " did a lot of people vote for him simply based on his proffessed faith? you bet your ass they did."

    Actually this is a pretty big myth that was explored by the NYT and it found that actually, this was not true at all.
  6. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

    Aug 24, 2004
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    Oak Harbor, WA (on Whidbey Island)
    One man does not run the Country, last time I looked, we do, if we know how to do it..."we" collectively have (D) in Congress as well as a predominantly (D) state legislature/gov...you/we can petition all of them (D's) & (R's) in the same manner as you've written this post.....


    All 600+.....of them.
    Blaming the voters over "values".....ain't gonna make a change, it's not too late, I think it read "proposed", and sounds like typical government in action, and a media as well......now there is a need for constituant reaction.......
    see what the real proposal says and move on that......
    It's truely designed to work that way.
    Research and then.....
    Write your legislator!

    I will presume you voted......
  7. Troutnut

    Troutnut Active Member

    Nov 27, 2004
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    Bellevue, WA
    Home Page:
    Remember, God hates fish! It's a sin to restore His creations to their natural state after you've damned them. *snicker* ;)

    I'm glad to see a forum that allows some environmental discussion that's honest about the Bush administration.

    It would be neat if writing legislators would help, but most of them are Republicans and for most Republicans special interests are more importan than America.

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

    May 5, 2002
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    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
    This o mykiss, while a bit mealy- mouthed at times, is no fool. I'm booming him for vice president and Kalm for prexy. Oh, and Ray Helaers for Secretary of State...

    Bob, the me? Well, I'll take a small post in Patagonia. :)
  9. Dylan D

    Dylan D Member

    Apr 8, 2003
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    West Seattle
    Both the P-I and Times had a story on this today, and I can't remember which it was, but in one of them they listed the date/place of the first public forum on the issue. Local action can speak loudly -- and it may just be our best avenue for action.
  10. Irafly

    Irafly Indi "Ira" Jones

    Mar 14, 2003
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    Everett, Washington, USA.

    Looks like we need to encourage the fish to stay away from the salt. Is there anyway we can ship some kings to other rivers? Can we consider Atlantics rare and endangered in some of these historic ranges once inhabited by great Kings and then quickly run down to QFC buy some nice fillets, throw them in and call them wild? Would the Bush administration consider fillets the same as wild? Man this if fun.

    I know the next part is lengthy, but here is an e'mail I recieved from Joseph Boggard from Save Our Wild Salmon. I hope it helps. (Joseph@wildsalmon.org)

    "This plan represents a total failure of leadership and is a
    crushing disappointment to the people of the Northwest," said
    Jan Hasselman, an attorney with the NWF (member group of SOS),
    the group that's led legal challenges to the federal salmon

    "It's a very disturbing proposal that radically limits the
    potential to recover salmon and steelhead, and sets a
    horrendously low standard for wildlife and habitat protection,"
    said David Hogan, urban-wildlands program coordinator at the
    Center for Biological Diversity

    Hello Advocates for Wild Salmon and Steelhead,

    If you saw the papers today, you saw huge headlines about the
    Bush Administration's recent decisions around salmon that are
    certain to harm recovery efforts in the Columbia Basin and
    across the Pacific Coast. Coverage in the media has been
    coast-to-coast: New York Times, LA Times, Oregonian, etc. Some
    links to these articles are below.

    From the perspective of wild salmon, and the people who value
    healthy salmon populations and the healthy lands and waters that
    they depend upon, this is very bad news; and we have some work
    to do!

    Two major decisions were announced in the paper today.

    HABITAT PROTECTIONS REMOVED (1) The Administration is going to
    eliminate more than 80% of the habitat protections ("critical
    habitat designations") under the Endangered Species Act. The
    Administration will only protect habitat where the salmon exist
    today - rather than where they once thrived.

    So it accepts salmon population levels where they are today -
    severely depressed and declining, and abandons the idea of
    protecting and restoring them. It also ignores the idea that
    rivers and lands are connected and influence each other.
    Removing habitat protections can only mean further habitat
    degradations and additional population declines.

    SNAKE RIVER: PLAN = EXTINCTION: (2) The second announcement was
    the release of final federal Salmon Plan for the Columbia and
    Snake Rivers. The "new" plan is actually worse than the "old"
    plan. The "old" plan was published in 2000, and invalidated by
    the courts in 2003 as ineffective. The judge in the case ordered
    the plan revised by the Bush Administration. This "new" plan
    ignores economics, taxpayers, science, and common sense. The
    plan cannot be called a recovery plan since it will allow
    already declining runs to continue to decline toward extinction.

    The plan lets dams off the hook, saying that they no longer
    "jeopardize" salmon and steelhead. This plan is estimated to
    cost $6 billion over the next 10 years, yet it will still allow
    salmon to decline towards extinction. It is a $6 billion
    roadmap to extinction.

    The "salmon" tone has been set for the second Bush
    Administration - and it is grim for healthy waters and lands -
    and for the people and the salmon that value and depend upon
    these important northwest qualities. We must all respond quickly
    and publicly and relentlessly to reject these efforts to degrade
    our "home-waters" and "home-lands."

    Our two best opportunities are the Courts and Congress.

    COURTS: Many people quoted in today's articles predict
    litigation as certain. Though the courts are generally a poor
    place for policymaking, they can be an effective place to stop
    bad things from happening. To be sure, there are court battles
    on the horizon.

    CONGRESS - THIS IS WHERE WE NEED YOUR HELP: The other place that
    we need to work is Congress - and there is a huge role for you
    to play communicating with your members of Congress - our
    salmon, our clean waters and healthy rivers and lands need you
    calling on your members of Congress to actively resist these
    efforts by the Administration. Our Congressional members need to
    hear from all of us that we are ready to work with them to
    defend our region's quality of life.

    1. Please make calls to your Representative and Senators. (See
    details below)
    2. Write them letters. Send them emails.
    3. Write letters to the editor, and send them copies, whether
    they are published or not. (See details below)
    4. Pull some friends together and meet with Congressional staff
    in their offices in-district. Attend "town-hall" forums and ask

    Work with me and others in the Save Our Wild Salmon Coalition to
    ensure that our Congress members are working hard to protect and
    restore wild salmon and steelhead and the rivers that WE ALL
    depend upon.

    Please be in touch with me if you are interested in getting more
    involved in resisting this plan for extinction.

    Representative Larsen and Senator Murray:

    Introduce yourself and tell them:
    1. salmon are a defining part of our region's culture and

    2. the Bush Administration's policies fail us in three ways: (a)
    they ignore science, (b) they waste taxpayer money, and (c) they
    don't protect salmon.

    3. we need their leadership NOW to protect salmon, salmon jobs,
    taxpayer dollars, and a healthy environment - help fight for
    habitat protections and an effective alternative plan that can
    replace an wasteful, failing Columbia Basin Plan.

    Representative Larsen: (202) 225-2605

    Senator Patty Murray: 202-224-2621
    AND PLEASE WRITE A LETTER TO THE EDITOR to the papers in your
    area (and cc it to your electeds!)

    Seattle Times OR the PI (not both)
    PI: editpage@seattlepi.com
    Times: opinion@seattletimes.com

    send your name, address, and day and evening phones; 150 words
    max. (and send me a copy in a separate email. thanx)

    Choose 2-3 points to make:
    1. salmon are important to our Northwest identity, culture,
    economy and environment. The public supports recovery, and this
    plan abandons the people and the salmon of the region.

    2. The "new" Bush Plan will cost taxpayers $6 billion, but it
    will still allow salmon to go extinct. There has to be a better
    way! Taxpayers get fleeced and salmon get the shaft.

    3. The Administration's plan ignores sound science, sound
    economics, and fiscal responsibility. Ignoring science when
    crafting policy is wasteful and ineffective. The Northwest
    should reject this plan.

    4. Let's be honest and follow good science. Let's quit wasting
    time and money and take a hard look at the option that
    scientists support - removing the lower Snake River dams. It
    costs far less and achieves far more.

    5. Where are our northwest leaders? Senators? Representatives?
    Hello! We need you. Are you going to stand by as our salmon and
    our dollars go down the drain? Is this why we voted you into

    6. Salmon mean business in the Northwest - 35,000 jobs and more
    than $3 billion annually. Salmon are good for jobs, tourism,
    and our economy.

    To read more:
    Seattle PI - Dropping dam removal from recovery plan angers

    Seattle Times - Dam Removal isn't an option under Bush Plan:

    New York Times - U.S. Rules Out Dam Removal to Aid Salmon:


    Visit the web address below to tell your friends about this.


    If you received this message from a friend, you can sign up for
    Save Our Wild Salmon at:

  11. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

    Oct 6, 2004
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    Ft. Mill, SC
    Bob: Great post! The exploitation of the "religious right" was the key to this campaign. You have to hand it to the evangelicals; they had huge voter turn-out because they cared about the issue they were told to care about by their leaders. George Bush's political career started when this daddy's campaign realized that evangelicals were won't going to vote for an Episcopalian (GHW faith). George was "one of them" (evangelical) and swayed their votes into dad's camp. These events positioned him as a front running candidate for the next ticket and that's how we got GW. So can religion get you elected? Well, I don't think it was his wonderful record of business, personal, or governmental oversight that did it. I am not a devote Christian, but I am one. The religion I learned call for campassion, understanding, and tolerance. Apparently, W and I got different versions of the good book. Frankly this election scares me! The future isn't looking bright, so guys; TAKE OFF THE SHADES.....
  12. Davy

    Davy Active Member

    Mar 20, 2004
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    SIlverton, OR
    The "Save every little dang bird at any cost people" would fight us "Save every fish at any and all cost people" on the issue of wind farms
  13. Rob Bodkin

    Rob Bodkin Member

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Mukilteo, WA
    Great post Ira, lots of useful info and numbers.

    Thank you!
  14. ChrisW

    ChrisW AKA Beadhead

    Jan 14, 2004
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    Seattle, WA.
    Wow, we said it would be bad, those of us who follwed GWB's policies for the past four years. This news is almost exactly one month from his election day victory. The second term has not started. For those of you who voted for him and support his policies in other areas you find important, are you surprised? If you believe that stopping stem cell research is more important than saving entire races of native fish, then you voted correctly.

    TH says write your legislator to oppose this. We will. We have been. I have written GWB too. It feels good to go on record that you oppose something that you have little control over. I also told him how I felt about Iraq before we went in (Remember the last great act of defiance picture? with the rat and the eagle?) Actually I was more respectful than that, but that is how I felt.

    BR, BN, C & C? care to comment? Do you care about this? You guys were all over the other thread. Liberals are whiners right?

    For me environmental issues were paramount. This is the one topic that the two candidates differed more than any other. But neither one campaigned on the issue. I guess Dems were too worried about alienating those states that have already destroyed their natural environment beyond all recognition. Well they didn't win and the issue was not even brought forth in the campaign so they/we have ourselves to blame on that one.

    If I could honestly believe that Reps had the best interest of the environment at heart (yeah right), I would hop on that elephant an' ride it as far as it would take us!

    CW, the not surprised.

    Swarzenegger in '08! He's our only hope! (OK I admit it, I am 'groping')
    :rofl: :rofl: :beathead: :beathead: bawling:
  15. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

    Feb 26, 2003
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    I won't mince words at the risk of pissing off half of you. I tried to tell you Repubicans, religious wannabes and other bag man. George is the anti-Christ and I'm glad I can say I didn't vote for him. This is only the beginning. We still have to whine about his upcoming detraction of his stance on not initiating the draft. You guys were duped by a Salmon and Steelhead killing, gonna send your son to die in the middle east because they tried to kill George Sr., raise you mom’s medication costs, waste away the social security, over the budget spending, clear cutting asshole.