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4K views 47 replies 25 participants last post by  hbmcc 
#1 · (Edited)
#2 ·
I spent a fair bit of time upside down in a 68 Camaro. Sliding down the highway at 100 miles per hour, sparks flying as the metal roof ground away, glass everywhere, spinning like a top. We did that a few times a year. Then we'd rebuild it for a month or two, and go do it all over again. Until the day that an oak tree wouldn't allow us to pass. If someone had told us that our car would become an $80-100,000.00 collector car someday, we would have laughed at them. Give me a 4 bbl Edelbrock carb, three pedals, and an 8-Track tape deck any day.
 
#3 ·
Loved it! What Bob said - give me rock, roll, and the throaty rumble of a V-8 any day. I only wish that I had kept a few of those cars. There's also something to be said for bench seats and a cute gf cuddled-up by your side & shifting for you while you were cruising the drag . . .
 
#4 ·
Wow, 180 mph+ on the last straight away, pretty cool.
 
#6 ·
4 barrel Edelbrocks were Carter AFB's back in the day.. 4150 Holley person myself.

Technology is inarguably amazing! 640 HP!! 10 speed automatic, who would ever have guessed? Quote from article: Put simply, there's no shame in going for a 2 pedal ZL1 this time around. I guess that's true but it sure aint the same either.. Combined with modern options like computerized 'Traction Control' negates a shit ton of driving skills.. call me old fashioned but it's accurate.
 
#12 ·
Technology is inarguably amazing! 640 HP!! 10 speed automatic, who would ever have guessed? Quote from article: Put simply, there's no shame in going for a 2 pedal ZL1 this time around. I guess that's true but it sure aint the same either.. Combined with modern options like computerized 'Traction Control' negates a shit ton of driving skills.. call me old fashioned but it's accurate.
Yeah give me a manual transmission any day! It might not be as fast, but it's going to be way more fun to drive. Sadly I think the days of manual transmissions are limited.
 
#11 ·
That's a fast time, but the M4 they mentioned in the article had a faster time with 147 LESS hp. Even the track ready Camero is still overweight.

Chevy runs deep.

But that dodge hellcat man I might move on from chevrolet

That Camero is amazing all the same .

And affordable is the craziest part of the story.
The Hellcat doesn't even belong in this discussion. It's pretty much the definition of a straight line muscle car. Cool car, but totally different beasts.
 
#14 ·
The manual transmission was doomed back in 1940 when the automatic was first introduced by GM. As much fun as they are and enjoyable to drive the sad truth is you just can't put on eye liner or lipstick with one, text, have a cell phone to your ear, scroll through menus just to find a radio station, eat a hamburger and fries or sip coffee and still shift gears.

In addition, the new 8 and 10 speeds accelerate faster and get better mileage than the same car with a manual. The 8 speed in my truck is simply amazing. I routinely cross Washington's highest highway pass-often with a trailer-and the transmission is always in the right gear. Upshifts are so smooth you have to watch the tach to see when they happen and steep uphill downshifts are almost imperceptible.

The 10 speed in the Camaro pictured is a joint product of Ford and GM engineering teams that they developed together. It was a huge engineering effort and the results are looking spectacular at this point. A big heavy sedan touring the 'Ring in sub 7'30'' time is just amazing and the fact that he just put the gear selector in "D" and drove with no further communication with the gear box speaks volumes about how good these things are.

Touring the 'Ring that fast in anything requires a good memory, a steady hand, a superb chassis and case hardened balls!
 
#19 ·
As much as I like the muscle cars back in the day, the new high performance iron is far superior to them. And yes, I owned a few back in the day. I had a '69 Charger R/T, 4 speed, Dana 60 posi, headers, and needed 98 octane to keep in from pinging under hard acceleration. It was fast, comfortable, and handled pretty well for its day. I also owned a "74 Duster 360 4-speed that had W2 racing heads, upgraded rear end, headers, slightly lowered front end, 60 series rear tires, 70 series front tires (they were radial Dunlop GTs). It was also fast. The Charger got 9 MPG if I kept my foot out of it, which I didn't, so I got 5-6 MPG. And although I drove it at 135 mph at times, I wouldn't recommend doing so unless you're on a closed course. The Duster got 13 MPG and covered the 1/4 mile in a little less than 13 seconds.

My younger brother had a '70 Chevelle SS with the big daddy 454 hi-po and I had a friend who had a '70 Challenger with a 426 Hemi. These were wickedly fast, but like my Charger, got like 8-9 MPG when you drove them easy, and 4-5 MPG when driven the way they were built to be driven.

All these cars took about 260' to stop from 70 MPH on dry roads, at some rain, and the stopping distance went up because antilock brakes didn't exist.

And all of these cars required tune-ups every 12-15,000 miles.

Today, my daily driver is an '05 Dodge Magnum RT 5.7 Hemi. It has 350 HP, gets 25 MPG on the highway, gets 20.5 MPG overall, and out handles and out brakes the '69 Charger, the '74 Duster, the '70 Chevelle, and the '70 Challenger Hemi. In fact, it does the 1/4 miles faster than those muscle cars by more than a second. A tune-up consists of spark plugs every 70,000 (I use E3 plugs).

And my fun car is my '91 Corvett ZR-1, a 400 hp supercar capable of 185 MPH. It gets 25 MPG on the highway, corners at over 1.0 g's, stops from 70 MPH in 150', and a tune-up consists of spark plugs. I've driven this car 140 MPH, but don't recommend anyone do so unless on a closed track because you never know when some idiot will do something dumb like pull out in front of you to pass a truck on a rural interstate with little traffic. And at 140 MPH, things come up pretty damn fast.

And the new C7 Corvette has 450 bhp and gets 29 MPG. And the C& Corvette ZO6 has 630 bph, gets 28 MPG, and tops out at close to 200 MPH. It can also stop from 70 in 130'.

The bottom line is todays vehicles are far better than fire-breathers of the muscle car era of the mid-60's to '72. I loved the muscle cars back in their time, but I will not trade the new, high performance cars for them. The new ones are far better, faster, handle very well, and stop a whole lot better than the muscle cars of old.

Ii remember back in the day (I graduated high school in 1971) the middle-aged folks waxing poetic about Hupmobiles, flat head Ford hot rods, etc. Just like folks are doing now with muscle cars of the 60's and 70's.
 
#22 ·
Today, my daily driver is an '05 Dodge Magnum RT 5.7 Hemi. It has 350 HP, gets 25 MPG on the highway, gets 20.5 MPG overall, and out handles and out brakes the '69 Charger, the '74 Duster, the '70 Chevelle, and the '70 Challenger Hemi. In fact, it does the 1/4 miles faster than those muscle cars by more than a second. A tune-up consists of spark plugs every 70,000 (I use E3 plugs).
FT, not sure where you sourced some of these numbers but I'm calling bunk on red font portion.

Was pretty sure but still spent 40 minutes googling stock 05 magnum RT Hemi 1/4 mile ET's and looks like exceptional performance would be in high 13 second range. Much more common and normal 14. 3 - 14.6 seconds.

Link to an annual event that takes place a little over 2 hours south of me: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/insi...heir-ultralow-e-t-s-at-2015-pure-stock-drags/

Quote below from linked article-

Commonly referred to as the Pure Stock Drags, or Pure Stocks, or simply Stanton (for the Michigan town near the Mid-Michigan Motorplex), the event is a full-throttle celebration of original-type muscle cars in their factory configuration, and in a state of tune very near factory specs. Some allowances are made for rebuilds, which just about every engine has had by now, and for very common but minor mods, like low-restriction air filters, electronic ignition modules, and X-pipes with today's mufflers. Beyond that, cars must run stock-size wheels and tires; factory engine castings; correct intake and exhaust manifolds; OE carb, cam, and valvetrain; and original transmission and axle. There's no event with stricter rules for originality that we know of, and racers have done extraordinary things within those rules. The e.t.'s for the top cars are now approaching mid-11s.

Yes, some minor modifications allowed, but nothing that's going to provide much in the way of raw HP gains.. Nothing like what a standard 'old school' hop-up would provide. The stock wheel and tire size clause is the real limiting factor.

I grew up and lived on drag strips, Dad had a wide reputation high performance speed shop from 1967 through 1975 built on his earlier efforts and extending beyond closing shop. That's where my sentiment for the originals stems from.

I readily agree that the modern cars are superior from a purely mechanical / numbers view point. It seems inarguable to me. What they are not is very similar, nor were they intended to be. It is cool how they've incorporated some of the original essence into the modern efforts
 
#21 · (Edited)
i think real American muscle cars get their power to the rear axle via either a 4 speed manual or a 3 speed auto... more gears than that is just cheating... and if it doesn't have hood pins and a shaker it needs them.

if you really like American muscle then i am sorry for embedding this video because now you'll waste the next several hours on youtube.
 
#23 ·
Back in the mid 50's I got a chance to ride in a hemi powered Nascar racer on public highways. It was a rush with telephone poles looking like a picket fence at over 140mph! The same in an E-Jag at over 130. But the big engines and high straight line speeds never really punched my ticket as small sports cars with high winding engines and exceptional cornering power always got my attention. My first car purchase after discharge from the Air Force was an Austin Healey 3000 followed a while later by a Porsche 356 roadster. Both were great fun to drive since I spent most of my time in the mountains. The Porsche was a tail happy oversteerer and could be aimed with the throttle which made it very entertaining.

Nowadays my driving is done in a pickup truck but if money was no object I would also have a hot hatchback with a 6 speed manual. My truck is about as sporty as pickups can get with a high winding DOHC 6 cyl and an 8 speed gearbox. It has a properly located rear axle with coil springs instead of leafs and rides and handles better than it has any right to. I still do most of my driving in the mountains and appreciate the sharp steering and strong acceleration the V-6 provides. I have owned several V-8's but was never a huge fan and thought that they were just overkill for my needs.

My supercar choice? No contest-the Lamborghini Huracan. The most beautiful coachwork since the E-Jag. Add to the pretty, over 600hp, all wheel drive, 0-60 in 2.5 seconds and a price of only around $200K. What a bargain!
 
#26 ·
Gas mileage? yes FT I agree with everything you said but lost in the cost to operate part .....lol power at any cost

Yeah definitely modern engines are way more powerful and efficient

Balance is the key not many people are willing to put out 4000$ for a balanced main crank
 
#28 ·
Shotgunner,

I agree some of the modern cars incorporate some of the essence of the old muscle car era. They are distinctive cars that are a hoot to drive. I personally think we are in the golden age of high performance cars.

Look at the advancements we've gotten in the Pro Stock Class of NHRA. They are now 6 second cars. Back in the '60's, top fuel dragsters were 6 second cars and Pro Stock equivalent were 9-10 second cars. Now Top Fuel is running high 3's and very little able 4 seconds.
 
#30 ·
They are distinctive cars that are a hoot to drive. I personally think we are in the golden age of high performance cars.
Grudgingly agree, FT. I'm just a nostalgic pisces.. Still shoot recurve bow, admire and carry collectible firearms.. and fish old fly reels :cool:

I'm certain they are great fun to tour or commute in. Similar to Iveoflone a modern pickup is the practical choice. My 68 Chevelle has sat idle for over a decade.. you may see it someday on a future episode of 'Barn Finds'.

 
#29 · (Edited)
amazing how fast things come at you at 155 mph!!!

180 mph i can not imagine
No kidding. I survived the one attempt to find the top end on my old '75 Nova. The speedo needle was completely buried but having a 4 speed I could go off the tach. I estimated somewhere in the ballpark of 150-155 at 5600 RPM if I remember correctly. That RPM sounds low for that speed but the car had tall gears with a stock 3.08 rear end.
 
#31 ·
That RPM sounds low for that speed but the car had tall gears with a stock 3.08 rear end.
Can totally relate here. In my early 20's had a 67 Chevelle, stout 396 BB ..same rear diff ratio, 3:08 with tall 28" tires to boot. About 5200 RPM the front end would literally start lifting.. Great fun when someone wanted to run them up towards top side. Once had a guy (with his gal pal!) run right with me up well over 100, I held back and let him slowly began creeping by, he was looking over and grinning ear to ear. When he got a little over a fender I dropped into 2'nd gear (400 Turbo) and literally left him.. Good times!
 
#32 ·
Nice to read about some of those nostalgic times. Brings back some great memories (and some not so good ones). Being a Chevy guy had my share of 60's Novas, Impalas and Chevelles but my favorite was a '65 Malibu SS with a factory 396. Damn thing scared the delight in and out of me. Back then to go faster make the block bigger. As the block sized increased, performance increased and maneuverability decreased. Suspension improvements were airbags/shocks and either ladder bars or wheelie bars LOL.

Then moved onto several Datsun roadsters and raced one in D production at SIR. Fun times... Toured the US in one before I got a real job at Boeing. Fun times! Then tried a Jaguar e-type with v12. Fun car for Montana highways. Cornering was a no-go. At a buck a mile for maintenance I went broke quickly.

My BMW 635 cSi was probably the most enjoyable car I have owned. It demonstrated what balanced performance, and tuned suspension was all about. IMHO it was the precursor of today's muscle cars...
 
#33 ·
While we are on the subject have you ever considered how the geographic location of the manufacturers influences the design of cars? Or how different countries define their products based on their manufacturing philosophy?

The American muscle car was a product of the American Midwest. Built in a land as flat as a pin pong table it only needed to go fast in a straight line. Gas was cheap and plenty of cubic inches were available to go ever faster. Cornering and braking were afterthoughts. They were loud brutish vehicles built for our interstate highway system and were just fine for that purpose. But not all of America is flat and get them on a mountain road and they were outright dangerous.

The Europeans with the Alps nearby built to a different mindset. The German cars valued handling and performance much more than 0-60 and massive horsepower. Their cars had to excel on the Nurburgring plus handle sustained high speeds on the Autobahn with the attendant precise steering and braking requirements.

The Italians had similar requirements to build cars that performed well in the Mille Miglia and Targa Florio . But where the Germans often built cars that looked like implements the Italians produced gorgeous coachwork. The engineering quality trailed the Germans but the emotional appeal of a beautiful body was hard to overlook.

The Swedes produced taciturn and staid cars for years that were hard to look at but were perfect for the harsh environment they were designed for. My first new car was a '69 Volvo that came with 4 wheel disc brakes. I think it was over a dozen years before that feature was standard on American cars-probably longer.

The Russians built cars like trash cans. Bearproof perhaps but with no other redeeming qualities.

The English have always built some interesting cars but it seems that most of their engineers failed their finals. I have seen some of the most dubious engineering on British cars and motorcycles ever. The national identity for their cars seems to be "quirky" and they were long satisfied with that. Now their industry is mostly foreign owned, quirky doesn't sell much internationally.

French cars have always been an enigma. Bizarre looking and often under engineered they have never found a comfortable place on the international market. Obviously they build them for the French but few others. I applaud their brave designs in some instances but note that none are sold in the US.

Aussie cars have long been products of mostly Ford or GM and have demonstrated the youth of the continent and it's often raw environment. They have been bold vehicles with lots of power for the wide open spaces and they have also highly valued rugged off road machinery for the outback. Sadly I believe almost all auto manufacturing is being terminated in Australia and we won't be seeing more of their imaginative creations.

Finally the Japanese. Their goal has been to build appliances that dependably perform year after year and they have been very successful at that. But in all the years they have been building cars they have only managed 2 vehicles of distinction in that time-the Toyota 3000GT and the 240Z Datsun. Toyota seems to be dedicated to building and selling the most hideous and plain vehicles they can con the public into buying. Nissan is not far behind with some truly bizarre designs and are sticking with the CVT transmission in almost all of their offerings. Honda is an engineering company first and foremost but recently have started to abandon their roots and are building some less than stellar stuff. The Mazda 6 is a better car than the Camry or Accord but sells only a fraction of what the others sell. That means that cars are selling on reputation rather than test drives but many products are perceived as better that really aren't. I have driven a number of the little cute utes and most are just front wheel drive station wagons with a powered rear axle. The Mazda CX-5 is the sports car of CUV's and is just a delight to hustle down a winding road.

So the muscle cars came and went and were a really entertaining chapter in our history. I'm glad so many have been preserved. But nowadays the pickup is king, sedans, hatchbacks, convertibles, station wagons, hardtop convertibles and SUV's have either faded, are fading or have disappeared altogether. The new 2017 Ford F-150 with the big Ecoboost engine is faster than any of the original muscle cars and driven sanely will produce about 3X the mileage. Let's enjoy this while it last. At some point some international event will spike gas prices higher than they have ever been and there will be a scramble to produce small economical cars again. The legions of city boys that have no real use for a pickup but to put more ass in their pants and 'be one of the guys' will dump pickups by the thousands. I see some good deals at that point for someone who needs a little used truck for a fraction of it's original price.

Ive
 
#37 ·
French cars have always been an enigma. Bizarre looking and often under engineered they have never found a comfortable place on the international market. Obviously they build them for the French but few others. I applaud their brave designs in some instances but note that none are sold in the US.
Ive
I pretty much agree with your post Ive. I have long thought the French were on the bizarre side. Certainly the Citroens even though they are engineering marvels in some ways. But, I was surprised a few years back, on a trip to Italy. We rented a Peugeot sedan/fast back. I'm not sure what the model was, but it was a VERY nice car. Looked somewhat like a Ferrari from the front. Just saying that it was a joy to drive and put on several hundred miles. It performed and cornered very well, even with 4 passengers and luggage. Would never have thought I'd enjoy a Peugeot, but I did. The GPS unit probably saved our marriage. Of course, that's standard gear today.

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