Anglers attacked by animal extremists

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by alpinetrout, Aug 19, 2006.

  1. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    I don't carry a gun when I fish, but I have considered it. I do have them in the house, and would use one if needed.

    Some issues one has to remember about using a gun. Only carry one if you are seriously prepared to use it! (Remember the Tacoma Mall Shooting last year, dude pointed his gun, but didn't want to fire, the kid with the AK47 looked too young....now the Good Samaritan is in a wheelchair) This ain't Hollywood or the Wild West, if you feel you, or someone you are with, are physically in danger, it is in your right (I ain't a lawyer) to shoot to kill. If don't want to do that, or can't live with the outcome, don't carry a gun. You only point a gun at someone that you are going to shoot. Aim for the body, it is the biggest target.

    One other thing, if someone has broken into your home at night, it is a pretty easy to justify lethal force, whether they are armed or not. I don't think it is as clear on a river or in a parking lot.

    Andrew
     
  2. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    It's interesting how many turns this has taken since Alpinetrout posted. Too bad we can't stay focused on one subject at a time. Instead of going off on tangents, can anyone respond to the original post?

    What is your reaction to such an event?

    What would you do if it happened to you?

    What do you think can be done to prevent such acts?

    Do you think animals have rights? What are they?

    Are there groups to counteract such anti-sporting groups?

    How can we help...?
     
  3. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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  4. Noah Pefaur

    Noah Pefaur New Member

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    Papafish,
    Nope, I don't "actually" know anyone at Proctor and Gamble, but i'm in Biotech so I know a bit about the company. They don't torture animals any more than fly fisherman. Big Bill, I agree you need people protesting. It keeps that whole 1st amendment thing more than just a theory. Papafish, shut yer piehole.
     
  5. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    Roper,

    I was about to respond to your very cerebral questions, but then you went off on a great tangent....marketing smokes to kids!





    Andrew
     
  6. BigBill

    BigBill Banned or Parked

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    You are absolutely wrong, proctor and gamble ranks among the worst offenders when it comes to cruel animal research. They have a burn ointment that was tested by burning live pigs to nurse them back to health using the ointment. Sick, cruel stuff.
     
  7. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    Touche'...:beathead: :beathead: :beathead:
     
  8. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    Opps, bad link

    Try this one



    Andrew
     
  9. Mike Etgen

    Mike Etgen Not Quite A Luddite, But Can See One From Here

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    Roper...

    Of course, you're right. Things have gotten a little off target. It's human behavior and, so it seems, easier to take a single incident, conclude that it defines an entire group of people, and use it to justify any bizzare or half-cooked idea you've got rattling around.

    Actually, I think most of the posts are in fact a direct reponse to Alpinetrout's original post. It's just not obvious, anymore than it's obvious why we went to war in Iraq because al-Quaeda attacked the world trade centers.

    Most of the posts, one way or another, go straight to the fear factor - fear "they" will do that here; fear that this particular group of lunatics represent animal rights activists everywhere; fear our guns will be taken away; fear that our favorite bogeyman will get away without taking the blame; fear of meth addicts, etc., etc., etc.

    It's nowhere near rational, but then IS fear rational? I guess I equate rational with having as much information as possible, and then responding in as measured a fashion as possible. Of course, not everyone gets that luxury. But here we have an opportunity to be rational, about which you reminded us.

    My answers:

    1. Amazing. How does one get so fired up about a point of view that one feels he/she has a right to deny others to make their own choice? There's some serious miswiring there, and it probably goes a lot deeper than animal rights.

    2. Talk. Try to start a conversation about this, now or later. Maybe agree to disagree. Maybe back down. I'm not personally ready to martyr myself for a sport, nor to kill someone else over a different point of view.

    3. Enforce the laws. Or, lacking appropriate laws, generate the publicity and political heat it takes to get the laws in place. I know, law enforcement personnel can't be everywhere, but we are a land of laws. So is GB, I think.

    4. Only the rights we grant them. In reality, we humans seem to have an intellectual advantage, if not a moral advantage, so we do get to decide. If I were an animal, though, I wouldn't look for much genuine mercy. After all, we're the species that practices child abuse, kills for pleasure, and devotes so much of our creative time and energy to depriving others of their dignity (or looking the other way). Maybe the best that can be hoped for is that we would continue as a species to try to understand what if any level of consciousness an animal has, and how it works. Probably a lot to learn there.

    5. I guess this would depend on what you mean by counteract.

    BTW...started this with some comments about some specific responses, but when I re-read them, they seemed a little too much like personal attacks and not very rational. So, I took my own medicine.
     
  10. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    Sorry Rope.....

    But i can only answer question #1.

    If i was rushed by any body, any age any sex in masks, i would shoot 'till empty, leave them where they fell, light a cigarette, and wait for police.
     
  11. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Bill, if your child was severely burned in a fire, you'd so thankful for ANY kind of releif for him\her. Do you know what a burn victim has to go through day to day to try and 'heal'? As a parent, it just makes me sick to think about it. If there was an ointmnet (oinkment? sorry...) that could help - I really couldn't care less how many pigs it was tested on.

    Now testing comsmetics and other 'research' that really has no value other than to make the company money, that's different in my view. But testing vaccines, cancer drugs, etc is fair game IHO.
     
  12. Scotty G

    Scotty G I lost my hat

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    I don’t see how someone can be so concerned with animal rights that they ignore and violate human rights. Not only is it rudimentarily hypocritical but just plain ignorant. Do these people think before they act or are they so emotionally devoted to the fish that they act in blind rage?

    Everyone has the right to defend oneself. But does this mean you have the right to empty a clip on someone running at you in a mask or throwing rocks? No. Can you fire a shot or two if you feel your life in danger? Probably, and if I believed my life, or family members life to be in danger, I would not hesitate to fire an incapacitating shot or two. However, if someone or a group were throwing rocks at me, you can damn well be sure that river rocks would be heading back up the bank with haste.
    *After years of developing a good loop and casting 60+ feet of wt forward and bulky flies we should all have the coordination to fire a rock with some accuracy and velocity. *

    Is there anything we can do to prevent these acts? Sure, just give everybody what they want. (Sarcasm)

    Animals do have rights, but not our rights. Is an animal’s life worth a human life? No. Would I eradicate an entire species to save a single life? Maybe, depends on the species (Trout? No, Hippies? Maybe) and how much the person means to me. Animals do not deserve the same rights that we enjoy. As soon as I observe a sea lion showing a salmon the same civility we (usually) share I might change my opinion. As far as product testing on animals goes I have mixed opinions. If we can save lives by testing drugs on animals go right ahead, doesn’t bother me a bit. Other unnecessary testing is different. I’ll never forget how much Bugs Bunny enjoyed being dolled-up, but I doubt that normal rabbits share in the same drag flair lifestyle as he did.

    On another note, these anti-sporting groups (Terrorists? Depends on their actions) should take on larger challenges: gill-netters, poachers, and sea lions. But if there comes a day when this starts happening on our waters I would love to be there to sit back and watch when an overzealous group of protesters start pushing snaggers in to the Washougal in September.
     
  13. BigBill

    BigBill Banned or Parked

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    Chad, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think they should test burn ointment on people in burn units who already have burns. I don't think they should take a healthy living pig and burn the hell out of the poor thing to test their ointment. I truly hope that if you, and the average person that shares your opinion, saw what happened to these animals first hand and researched the biological differences between humans and animals that prevents the research from even being effective in 90%+ of the cases, you would reconsider your position.

    My degree is in Psych with an emphasis on laboratory research. The studies I was part of focused on people more than animals, but I did witness the kind of stuff that happens within an animal research environment. The life of the research animal is about as valuable as a microscope slide. Except, more care is required when disposing of the discarded slides...


    Scotty, I refuse to debate the value of human life on a thread where it is common to read a post encouraging the taking of human life by way of gun shot wound. It just seems like I'd be pissing in the wind...(scratching my head trying to remember at what point posting in this thread with my opinions WASN'T pissing in the wind...)
     
  14. FlyFisherKid

    FlyFisherKid the kid's in town.

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    wow, what a shame, i mean we all respect the rivers and wildlife as much as they do, we love fishing so we try to preserve the fish, we arent monsters who destroy echo sytems
     
  15. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    But if you are ever severely burned all over your body in pain you could never even imagine each and every minute of the day as they scrub your burnt flesh - I guarantee that you'd get off your high horse and beg for that ointment that was tested on the pigs if it woult truely offer some relief. And if your child was in the same shape, you would not think twice about using the ointment tested on the pigs. Testing on a burnt person is fine, after it has been proven on a pig - to help ensure that it won't actually make things worse or cause more pain or other side effects.


    Aside from all that... Do you eath bacon? Eggs? Steak? I know you hook a fish now and then, and some of them are badly injured and end up slowly dying. Do you do this so that someday a person's life may be saved? No, you do it for your own perosnal fun.