Anybody hear Sen.Boxer and Condie Rice?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Steve Buckner, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    Bad formatting, sorry....

    Source: Chicago Council on International Relations, 2003
    AMERICANS SHOW A READINESS TO USE MILITARY FORCE, ESPECIALLY TO
    FIGHT TERRORISM AND WHEN DONE MULTILATERALLY.
    AN INCREASED MAJORITY FAVORS ASSASSINATION OF TERRORIST LEADERS.
    Americans express a willingness to use military force, including ground troops, in a variety of
    situations. This is especially true of military action aimed directly at combating terrorism and
    of multilateral rather than unilateral action. If a multilateral approach is not specified,
    however, the survey found no majority in favor of using force in several key scenarios that
    might involve extensive casualties.
    In order to combat
    terrorism, an overwhelming
    majority of Americans
    (87%), favor U.S. air strikes
    against terrorist training
    camps (up 13 percentage
    points since 1998.) A hefty
    84% favor similar attacks by
    U.S. ground troops, up a
    remarkable 27 percentage
    points, perhaps because of
    the nearly casualty-free
    success of the war in
    Afghanistan. The use of
    military troops to “destroy a
    terrorist camp” is approved
    by fully 92% of the public.
    Smaller but still substantial
    majorities of the public also
    favor using U.S. troops to
    assist the Philippine
    government in fighting terrorism, to topple unfriendly regimes that support terrorist groups,
    and to help the government of Pakistan against a radical Islamic revolution. A solid 66% of
    Americans (up 12 points since 1998) favor the assassination of individual terrorist leaders.
    Percentage who favor the following military measures to

    Source: The Chicago Council on Foreign Relations and the German Marshall Fund of the United States, 2003
     
  2. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Jay,
    This sounds like it hits pretty close to home for you, sorry, but please don't make this a personal attack on me or anyone else. Feel free to debate the topic and feel free to disagree but personal slams defeat your ability to be persuasive. Use your intellect, not your emotions.

    The main issue is that we were not justified in invading, a point I'm sure you'll still contend. But if we're doing such a great job there, then why is the american public so anxious for us to get out? Do they think our job is finished there? Likewise, why are the Iraqi people so anxious for us to get out? According to GWB, we're not occupying their country but somehow we're there without being asked to be. Furthermore, why does the rest of the world want us to get out? Why is it costing so many lives and so much money?

    Is it wrong to compare Saddam to GWB, maybe not line by line, but don't be too quick to judge the US as the good guys in this operation of "Good vs. Evil". Was our invasion of Iraq a humanitarian one, or did it just turn into that after the US could not justify it's reasons for the invasion? Is this invasion on par with the invasion of Nazi germany like you suggest?

    No one disputes that Saddam killed lots of innocent civilians but let's not also forget that GWB has done the same with his mandate to invade Iraq. Conservative estimates are that between 10,000 and 37,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed so far and we're far from seeing the end of this holocaust. The US has not done a good job of protecting the people of Iraq from the violence that has continued to ravage their country.

    Is Iraq a better place without Saddam? It remains to be seen. Is the world a safer place with Saddam gone? One of the experts on terrorism Peter Bergen, wrote this five months ago -

    "What we have done in Iraq is what bin Laden could not have hoped for in his wildest dreams: We invaded an oil-rich Muslim nation in the heart of the Middle East, the very type of imperial adventure bin Laden has long predicted was the U.S.'s long-term goal in the region. We deposed the secular socialist Saddam, whom bin Laden has long despised, ignited Sunni and Shi'a fundamentalist fervor in Iraq, and have now provoked a defensive jihad that has galvanized jihad- minded Muslims around the world. It's hard to imagine a set of policies better designed to sabotage the war on terror."

    According to Senator Boxer "This conclusion was reiterated last Thursday by the National Intelligence Council, the CIA director's think tank, which released a report saying that Iraq has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of professionalized terrorists. That's your own administration's CIA. NIC chairman Robert Hutchings said Iraq is, quote, "a magnet for international terrorist activity."

    So, all that said, should someone like GWB, or more specifically, Condoleeza Rice, the new secretary of state, be held accountable for the gross use of misinformation? I certainly hope so and was greatful to hear Senator Boxer explain that to Condoleeza Rice in yesterday's testimony.
     
  3. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    I bet this kid, who'd be a teenager now might disagree?
     

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  4. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    Why is the American public so anxious to get out? Well, why does Headline News have a story being reported, with another on the side, with another scrolling across the bottom. It's called a short attention span Steve.

    When the next attack hits our soil, we'll be waving those flags again. Fireman on stamps, NYPD caps everywhere, and Tim McGraw will belt out another tune titled something like, "This old flag or don't mess with the US." The polls will switch, the "causekids" will protest, ect....

    When it comes to emotion, my friend. You call the war a holocaust, state the CIA is from my country; not our country, and you are right; we shouldn't forgot the 10-37 thousand Iraqis who have died. You have obviously forgotten the 3,000+ that died here. The worlds got some bad guys in it Steve. Someone has to do something about it. Now or Later? That's really the only question.

    Dr. Rice and GW are not being held accountable? George got sworn in today and Condi will get confirmed. If that's being held accountable for creating a "holocaust" and igniting "muslim fundamentalist fervor", I'm a little confused?????

    Are you????

    It seems the "fundamentalist fervor" was pretty well in place before the invasion. You might recall two airplanes slamming into two very large buildings? In New York?

    Lets see: Attacks on US soil before invasion: 2 (WTC twice). After invasion: 0. You're right, it's crazy out there! This administration sucks! If we have to bring the fight to them, rather than fighting it here, I'm on board. When it comes to soldiers vs. civilians dying. I'll take the soldiers. That's a risk they signed up willing to meet. I took that risk for ten years myself.

    I'm going to see if I can really screw something up here at work. My boss will hopefully hold me accountable! That's how to get that promotion darn it! I've been approaching this all wrong!!!


    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

    John Stuart Mill
     
  5. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Jay,
    I think you're confused as to who initiated the 911 attacks. It wasn't Saddam, and we didn't invade Iraq because we thought they needed democracy. Have you been paying attention as to who the 911 perpetrators were? Well, it's no secret at this point...it's been in the papers for over 3 years now. It's a group called Al-Queda, it's an organization who is headed by Osama Bin Laden, maybe you've heard of him. He's been missing for almost 4 years now. He tried to unite the Islamic world against the US but it back fired after 911. It took the likes of GWB to do what Osama could not, to unite the Islamic world against us and other countries.

    GWB has successfully convinced you that there is a link between Al-Queda and Saddam, although investigations such as the 911 Commision proved otherwise. However, thanks to GWB, after our invasion, Al-Queda has moved successfully into Iraq and it has now become the breeding grounds for Islamic Terrorists according to the NIC.

    So you condem the killing of innocent people by Saddam but the US has played an equally grave roll in the killing of innocent civilians. Why is it better if the US kills innocent civilians? I'm a little confused, I thought killing innocent people was always bad...It sounds like it is acceptable for you that we just invaded another country that posed no real threat and in the process, the US killed a bunch of innocent people, all in a days work I suppose. I believe you said, "the end justifies the means". For me, I'd just as soon not have our government doing that sort of thing, call me old fashioned. I'd like to see our government pursue Bin Laden and blow that SOB into a gazillion pieces.

    And back to your reference to Halabja, here's something else you won't want to read but should. Just when you thought you could tell right from wrong, good from bad, and Osama from Saddma, it looks like the US may have played a roll in the deaths of those people.

    Saddam Could Call CIA in His Defense July 3rd, 2004
    by Sanjay Suri

    LONDON - Evidence offered by a top CIA man could confirm the testimony given by Saddam Hussein at the opening of his trial in Baghdad Thursday that he knew of the Halabja massacre only from the newspapers.

    Thousands were reported killed in the gassing of Iraqi Kurds in Halabja in the north of Iraq in March 1988 towards the end of Iraq's eight-year war with Iran. The gassing of the Kurds has long been held to be the work of Ali Hassan al-Majid, named in the West because of that association as 'Chemical Ali'. Saddam Hussein is widely alleged to have ordered Ali to carry out the chemical attack.

    The Halabja massacre is now prominent among the charges read out against Saddam in the Baghdad court. When that charge was read out, Saddam replied that he had read about the massacre in a newspaper. Saddam has denied these allegations ever since they were made. But now with a trial on, he could summon a witness in his defense with the potential to blow apart the charge and create one of the greatest diplomatic disasters the United States has ever known.

    A report prepared by the top CIA official handling the matter says Saddam Hussein was not responsible for the massacre, and indicates that it was the work of Iranians. Further, the Scott inquiry on the role of the British government has gathered evidence that following the massacre the United States in fact armed Saddam Hussein to counter the Iranians chemicals for chemicals.

    Few believe that a CIA man would attend a court hearing in Baghdad in defense of Saddam. But in this case the CIA boss has gone public with his evidence, and this evidence has been in the public domain for more than a year.

    The CIA officer Stephen C. Pelletiere was the agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. As professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, he says he was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf.

    In addition, he says he headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States, and the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

    Pelletiere went public with his information on no less a platform than The New York Times in an article on January 31 last year titled 'A War Crime or an Act of War?' The article which challenged the case for war quoted U.S. President George W. Bush as saying: ”The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured.”

    Pelletiere says the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report following the Halabja gassing, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need- to-know basis. ”That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas,” he wrote in The New York Times.

    The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja, he said. ”The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent -- that is, a cyanide-based gas -- which Iran was known to use. ”The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.”

    Pelletiere writes that these facts have ”long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned.”

    Pelletiere wrote that Saddam Hussein has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. ”But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.”

    Pelletiere has maintained his position. All Saddam would have to do in court now is to cite The New York Times article even if the court would not summon Pelletiere. The issues raised in the article would themselves be sufficient to raise serious questions about the charges filed against Saddam - and in turn the justifications offered last year for invading Iraq.

    The Halabja killings were cited not just by Bush but by British Prime Minister Tony Blair to justify his case for going along with a U.S. invasion of Iraq. A British government dossier released to justify the war on Iraq says that ”Saddam has used chemical weapons, not only against an enemy state, but against his own people.” An inquiry report in 1996 by Lord Justice Scott in what came to be known as the arms-to-Iraq affair gave dramatic pointers to what followed after Halabja. After the use of poison gas in 1988 both the United States and Britain began to supply Saddam Hussein with even more chemical weapons.

    The Scott inquiry had been set up in 1992 following the collapse of the trial in the case of Matrix Churchill, a British firm exporting equipment to Iraq that could be put to military use.

    Three senior executives of Matrix Churchill said the government knew what Matrix Churchill was doing, and that its managing director Paul Henderson had been supplying information about Iraq to the British intelligence agencies on a regular basis.

    The inquiry revealed details of the British government's secret decision to supply Saddam with even more weapons-related equipment after the Halabja killings.

    Former British foreign secretary Geoffrey Howe was found to have written that the end of the Iraq-Iran war could mean ”major opportunities for British industry” in military exports, but he wanted to keep that proposal quiet.

    ”It could look very cynical if so soon after expressing outrage about the treatment of the Kurds, we adopt a more flexible approach to arms sales,” one of his officials told the Scott inquiry. Lord Scott condemned the government's decision to change its policy, while keeping MPs and the public in the dark.

    Soon after the attack, the United States approved the export to Iraq of virus cultures and a billion-dollar contract to design and build a petrochemical plant the Iraqis planned to use to produce mustard gas.

    Saddam Hussein has appeared so far without a lawyer to defend him. A Jordanian firm is reported to be speaking up for him. But the real defense for him could be waiting for him in Washington and London.
     
  6. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

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    What exactly does that have to do with what we've been debating? Oh, I get it now, it doesn't have anything to do with the justification for the invasion that was proferred ahead of time: that Iraq was an imminent threat to the U.S. No, in hindsight, I guess we were avenging the deaths of those killed in Halabja.

    Hey, I actually can appreciate stopping genocide as an argument for going to war. I think it's worth debating, and it might have been a more appealing argument to the rest of the world. But as repressive as he was, there was no intelligence that I'm aware of that he was involved in genocide recently. And more importantly, it's not what the administration sold the war on. No doubt he was a bad guy, but our economy is not big enough, and we do not have enough people to volunteer for a military that is big enough, to invade and occupy every country run by a repressive regime that doesn't like us. The preemptive strike doctrine actually has some intellectual appeal even to a liberal like me, but for it to work we need a lot better intelligence than we had. The fact is, we have a huge mess on our hands. I don't think it's wrong to want to know how we got into it, so we can avoid something like this in the future.

    You keep trying to suggest a link between Iraq and 9/11 and keep suggesting that critics of Bush's Iraq decisions and policies will have to shut up and apologize the next time terrorists attack us on U.S. soil. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Yet our own most recent National Intelligence Estimate seems to suggest that the chances of Iraq playing a role in another terrorist attack against the U.S. has actually gone up as a result of how this war has been prosecuted. The NIE wasn't put out by Democrats or peace-niks against the war. It was put out by people who ultimately work for this administration. Geez, even Condi finally admitted that mistakes had been made with our Iraq policy. Maybe you could too.
     
  7. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    Steve & O my kiss:

    I understand, as do most by now, who was responsible for the attack on the WTC. My point is that the same extreme muslim fundamentalism that spurred those attacks exists in Iraq as well. Some argue Iraq as a "great base" in which to bring democracy to the Middle East. Clearly, you can see the dangers of countries with the wealth of Iraq in establishing programs that would enable them to kill thousands, if not millions of people. Clearly, we must fear depth of their hatred and willingness to die to avenge it! We've begun a scary path for sure. We've camped in the backyard of the countries that hate us and taken a stand. This unfortunely, will probably be the first of many we will have to take. The wealth of the Arab world makes them dangerous as they have the means (money) to hurt us and they preach to hate. Expert have deducted the WTC attacks took billions of dollars to plan and accomplish. Two choices are clear: develop greater control of what makes them powerful: oil or wean our dependence from fossil fuels. I'd prefer the later, but in the mean time we better keep our eye on the ball. They hate us more now, but surey, they hated us enough before the war to kill thousands of innocent people. We cannot be complacent. We have to be diligent in our watch. What else would you suggest? Education, aid, food? We are doing these things now for Muslims in Indonesia while Egyptian TV and websites explain that the US caused the earthquake with a nuclear weapons test. They are implored NOT donate money as the infidels will seize it and use it against us. The time for diplomacy may well have passed. We have to take a stand. What else is left? This is not going away. Iraq occupation or not.

    I have enjoyed this healthy discussion with you both. It's great to see that others educate themselves on the issues. Steve's last post was very informative. Like Johnny Carson used to say, "I did not know that." Emotional? On this issue I am. You two are as well. It's great to see others with the passions, convictions, and independent thought. I may not agree with you two, but I can respect you. Good Fishing....
     
  8. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Jason, I'd go fishing with you any time!!! Thank you for the lively debate. It's ok to disagree but in the end, we're all just trying to make sense of it. :thumb:
     
  9. Bright Rivers

    Bright Rivers Member

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    The notion that we are “imposing democracy” on Iraq is an interesting one. Kind of like how we imposed emancipation on the slaves? Or how we imposed liberation on France, South Korea, Kuwait, etc.?

    You realize, of course, that if Communism is imposed upon you, you’re stuck. But Iraq, if they so choose, will be free to throw off the shackles of liberty and embrace the tyranny you seem to think they’re longing for. But I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you. Liberty tends to be addictive. They’re learning that in Afghanistan.
     
  10. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    "In World War II, it was mostly up to Americans to fund the Allied war effort. Imagine if we had been obliged to fund the Axis effort, too. Actually, that shouldn't be hard to imagine because right now we are indeed funding both sides in the War on Terrorism. We finance the defense of the Free World against its sworn enemies through our tax dollars. And we support the terrorists every time we go to a gas station and fill up the tanks of our cars." - Clifford D. May, a former New York Times foreign correspondent, is the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies a policy institute focusing on terrorism.

    http://www.defenddemocracy.org/in_the_media/in_the_media_show.htm?doc_id=198041

    # "Islamism is a totalitarian movement masquerading as a religion."
    # "If not for the power of oil, this movement would be a few thousand crazy people in the middle of the desert."
    # "The Wahhabis [of Saudi Arabia] are to Islam as Torquemada was to Christianity."
    # "It will not be possible to satisfy the grievances of Militant Islamism. This will not end with an al Qaeda Gorbachev. This is a war to the death, as was the war with the Nazis."
    # "This is not a clash of civilizations or even countries. It's freedom vs. tyranny."
    # "Had Saddam Hussein gone another 100 miles in 1990, he would have controlled over half of the world's proven reserves of oil."
    # "This war effort requires summoning the country to a common purpose - a 'long, hard slog' is exactly what lies ahead."
    # "Energy is a key component of this war; we simply must reduce our reliance on Middle East petroleum, on oil produced by vulnerable autocracies and pathological predators."

    http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=197851
     
  11. jbrandon

    jbrandon Grasshopper: be the fly, be the fish.

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    Great discussion! We would be great politicians if we wern't so busy fishing.

    Why didn't we debate before Death?

    Fear? Greed? Nostalgia?

    There's no debate. Stop thinking, Silly. There's nothing friendly about fire. We have Intelligence.

    The answer is "Both".

    Mutual exclusivity is the china-shop; think outside. This is the post-New World. Be Brave.

    "Us" or "Them".

    Just not in that order. Get it, finally? You're a Bull. Hurry up! We need to defend.

    Don't throw stones. Janus speaks. Kill to protect.

    Death NOW, so we can live forever. War IS peace.

    Get it? Shhh...not so loud....
     
  12. Roper

    Roper Idiot Savant

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    We didn't enter into full blown war of aggession in any of these but WW2.

    Boxing...you better knock me out first punch and hope I don't get up... :thumb:
     
  13. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    BR, I think you'll have a tough time comparing the "freeing of the Iraqi people" to the freeing of Europe from the Nazis but I'd love to see your arguments for such. If "freeing of the Iraqi people" would have been on par with freeing Europe from the Nazis, there would have been overwhelming support from the entire world and that's clearly NOT what happened. Let's see your argument.

    I think you'll also have a hard time making a valid argument that the Iraqis were secretly requesting the US to come in all along and start democracy but please, give it a go. Their traditions, customs, and philosophies are thousands of years old. To complicate your argument further, the US was the country that put Saddam in power by supplying him with whatever weapons he needed during the Iran/Iraq war, if democracy had been an agenda, it could have started long ago.

    Did/do the Iraqis like Saddam? No, but maybe some do. Do they like the US? NO, but maybe some do. Certainly there is historicaly evidence that during the war in 1991, the US had promised many Iraqis that the US would continue it's invasion and tried to get Iraqis to rise up against Saddam but the US didn't continue and those who revolted were killed.

    Just like GWB, it sounds like you would agree that we're not occupying Iraq either, that somehow the US millitary is playing the same role as the Peace Corp would be if it were safe enough. We're building bridges, putting in water, making gardens. I wonder if the US bombs played any role in ruining their country to begin with? ;)

    Did you hear about the Iraqi run newspaper that the millitary silenced because they were printing anti-US literature? No, this is no joke..it really happened. So much for free press in Iraq, if it goes against the US objective of "Democracy" in Iraq.

    But to use one of your examples, over 140 years have past since the slaves were free and we still have many racial issues in our country. The south is still ravaged by hate. Everything looks good on the books though, but that isn't reality and it's not reality to believe that the Muslims of the world are looking for Democracy, or your brand of Christianity for that matter.

    It is interesting that when all of the fighting between the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda was taking place, literally millions died, that the US showed now real interest in sending troops there. Any idea why? If anybody could have used a good ol' shot of democracy, it seems like it would have been them. Maybe if only they would have had oil, or white skin...To use a much more recent case, even last year, when the Haitians were pleading for help from the US, the US was very slow in sending any aid whatsoever. How many weeks and months went by before the US sent any help at all? It would have been a quick plane ride, nothing at all like sending troops to the middle east. Certainly you must remember that.

    Are you suggesting that the US role in the world has now changed to save all countries from tyranny? If it is, it sounds like we're going to need a few more in the millitary...we're spread pretty thin right now. I'm guessing we'll need to start right away and take care of Iran, Syria, Korea to name a few. Are you ready for a big tax hike to fund all of this? GWB has declared this "the american century", I think he has big plans...

    If a country meets our need for oil or our other economic agendas, we're always glad to help.
     
  14. Monk

    Monk Redneck

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    It might be worth noting that we had near the same disdain for the Jews as the Germans did. Our resoning for going to war with Germany was more based upon self preservation than on some romanticized notion of freeing the Jews. Similar to the romanticized notion of the civil war being about freeing the slaves.
     
  15. Rob Bodkin

    Rob Bodkin Member

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    While again being mindful of the admonition to keep things civil and not attack anyone in particular, the assertion that our nation 60+ years ago held "near the same disdain" for the Jews that Germany held is an affront to not only our national character, but is almost too ridiculous to take seriously. Almost.

    True we did not enter into the war actively and publicly until after Pearl, we had long been a supporter of the allies and had clandestinely helped for a number of years. It is also true that we did not enter into the war actively and publicly to "free the Jews". At the point we entered the war their treatment was know to only be that of a discriminated against class, with discrimination, restriction, some relocation and some killing. Right or wrong, not the defining characteristic of the Axis that it has become.

    Had the treatment and extermination of the Jews,Gypsies and others been widespread and public knowledge I have no doubt that we would have been inclined to act. If one were to avail themselves of the history they might note that while the terror was present, the wholesale and widespread genocide did not get run in high gear until the spring/summer of 42'. In the 36' through 42' era they had yet to perfect their terror machine to the point of effective mass gassing and extermination.

    Frankly rebutting your vile and ignorant comment makes me ill.

    Rob