Are they lures or steelhead flies?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by headstrong1, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. need2fish

    need2fish New Member

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    Whenever I read some of this elitist, puritanical, BS I think of the first chapter in Roderick Haig-Browns "A Primer of Fly-Fishing" entitled 'The Virtue of the WORM'!

    I have had my copy for over 20 years. I pulled it out a few weeks ago after reading a few posts on this site that really got under my skin. This book should be in everyones library.

    There are a few great quotes I will post later when I have more time.

    I think rivers would be a better place if we took to heart what was written in this book over 4 decades ago!

    Andrew
     
  2. Randy Knapp

    Randy Knapp Active Member

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    Webster's:an inducement to pleasure or gain; ENTICEMENT; APPEAL, ATTRACTION; A decoy for attracting animals to capture; artificial bait used for catching fish

    All flies are lures!

    Randy
     
  3. Wayne Jordan

    Wayne Jordan Active Member

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    I could just as easily attach a wet fly to my spinning rod, add a couple of split shot, and waalaa, catch a trout... This takes little skill compared to casting a fly line & 9 foot leader with a fly on it.
    You want to impress me, take bamboo rod with a reel&line made in the 1920's and go flog the water. No one ever seems to question if using their high modulus, disc drag, rocket tapered lines, with machined tapered fluorocarbon leaders is pure!!! At this point in the game does it really matter what's on the end of the line? I think the only pure part left to fly fishing is just getting out on the river, lake, or sound and trying to entice a fish to strike.
    You want a pure a experience take a kid fishing for the first time(wether it's with a zebco 202, or $1,000.00 fly outfit, it really doesn't matter to them), then you will have a pure experience to the utmost!
     
  4. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Just to answer a few points:
    Chadk: catfish with hands has nothing to do with fishing simply because a fish is involved, anymore than digging worms. Fish mongers also work with fish but they are not fisherman either. Maybe these guys are hunters but I don't want to piss off hunters at this point; enough people are mad at me already. Bow hunting for fish is pure hunting--a bit of mono connecting fish to hunter is really beside the point.
    Remember that I didn't fabricate any ladder--it's been there from the days of Isaac Walton and I'm not at the top.
    Snob or not, I am a flyfisherman. I do have more skills, more time on the water, read more, have better equipment, and I take it all far more seriously, I suppose, than does the average snatch and catch. I'm not better as a person. I am better as a fisherman. Think of sand lot baseball and the minor leagues (don't I wish) but there is a hierarchy in sport.
    I agree totally on being content, not letting others dictate your worth. Piss on elitist and snobs. It's about the only resasonable thing to do to them.
    But being good does not make one a snob. Try fishing worms and beating a good tube flyfisherman at most of our lakes or rivers.
    In Telkwa, B.C. this year, a gear man gave me a ride one day when I needed it badly. He also gave me some delicious moose pepperoni. He had a spin rod, a big hot shot on the end and no other apparent gear. Here I come dressed in my full regalia, waders, fishing shirt, vest, hat, spey rod and reel, fancy line etc. I could see he was impressed, particularly since I had spent several thousand dollars and would drive for six straight day to have the pleasure of fishing along side of my new friend. I suppose he thought I was rolling in dough.
    I'm not better than him as a person, but I am a better fisherman given a level playing field. One would expect that to be true or something's radically wrong here.
    I do fish mostly dry flies for trout and for steelhead. But my trout dries have a little nymph underneth them and my steelhead flies are never fished straight up. They are waked, and I suppose that wouldn't fly in PA. I don't care what they think nor should you.
    We are, however, all fly fishermen on this site and that shouldn't get anyone here upset or so I should think.
    Bob, the flyfisherman and if I'm a snob as a result --so be it.
     
  5. dude_1967

    dude_1967 Chris

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    Dear headstong1, dear everyone,

    In my opinion, conservation is more important than getting hung up on characteristics of the sub-branch of fishing known as flyfishing.

    The greatest danger to the integrity of our fishing passion is probably the headlong, reckless destruction of our environments. It might be more important to focus on finding reasonable compromises between environmental management and economical growth. Especially in the Seattle area, the damage has been heavy.

    When flyfishing one should probably try to respectfully lure in the fish however, CDC drag-free dry doodle whatever or leadhead scruffy thingy. I'm too much of a knumbskull to outwit an unsuspecting onchorynchus-k-whatever most of the time anyway 'cause I just slip and maybe fall onto the unsuspecting thing while it's in heat.

    Just try to use single hooks, maybe even barbless. Avoid the use of live bait and nets. Generally make a strong effort to conserve the environmental treasures of the world including the Northwest.

    Sincerely, Chris.
     
  6. headstrong1

    headstrong1 youngish old guy

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    My karma is really going to suffer for this one, the negative energy this post inspired was unintended. I do not deny that I consider myself a purist of sort Bob, and I am proud of it, perhaps like you. I would not try to convert the next guy to flyfishing- because there are plenty of us jerknuts out there already preaching our greatness. I mean everyone knows we're elitist - hisory is not on our side. Like the missionaries trying to kill native religions to convert them to Jesus- it does more harm than good. I am not always proud to be associated with flyfishing. My feeling is those pipe toting chalk stream guys need a good rousing now and again- some sort of rough comment from a rural feller such as myself to get their blood moving a little. mAybe a good kick in the a$$. Yet I subscribe to many of their beliefs- C&R, barbless, etc etc. I keep myself sane by telling myself that at least I don't have any money, so I can't possibly be as big a jerk as that pompous orvis dude. Its a love-hate self-loathing contradiction. Everything is.
     
  7. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

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    that fly, uhh I mean lure, is awesome!! Where can I get a propeller from?? ;)

    ~Patrick ><>
     
  8. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    I used to live in Penna and I know the Chalk Streams you talk of. I have fished the Brandywyne and French Creek. And let me tell you if you think the fly fishermen out there are pompous snobs you are right for the most part ! (ha betch ya thought I was going to disagree) but one thing most of you out here don't realize is that most of those flyfishing snobs out there would give up alot to be in the spots we are in out here. This "is" where the fishing is at. When we talk of bringing in Trout or Steelhead averaging 12 to 16 inches and call them "small" most east coast guys choke on that! while they have there snobbish ways, there is no way they could compare the the fishing we have here! We are envied on the east coast although quietly because I guess it may be a macho thing not to admit an average size for trout may be 8 to 10 inches and huge would be 14". I say give them there purist elist attitude because I know we out here live in "the Best fly fishing spot in the world" Yes I said it. I believe it's the best and I wouldn't trade it for anything.and I hope I never take it for granted. Here's to Washington !
    Steve
     
  9. sjterry

    sjterry Sr. Lurker

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    Where do you fish for trout around here where you consider 16 inches small? (other than Rocky Ford or the Yakima) 16 inches is a good trout for most Washington rivers in my experience. And, a day full of 11-13 inches is a good day for native trout in any west side river. (I'm happy if I get 6 or 8 fish over 13 inches from the Snoq. or any of its tribs. in a good day of fishing.) If you consistently catch trout (not SH, Sal. or SRC's) bigger than 14 inches, you have found much better water than I have. That said, we do live in a great place to fish. Having spent some time in the upper mid-west where chucking a slinky and shrimp with a fly rod is considered fly fishing for SH, I wouldn't trade it either.
     
  10. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    bob,

    first of all, fishing a fly rod in no way means one is a better fisherman than someone fishing conventional gear. that is 100% nonsense. flyfishing is one technique in the arsenal. it can be tougher in some conditions, but i guarantee that many of the "elitist" fly fishermen wouldn't hold up one hour gear fishing the ocean with me and the guys i fish with. fly fishing is a great way to catch fish but to dismiss other fishermen as being less skilled, less educated (the reading quip), or poorer is not only elitist, but plain @#$%$ nonsense. if you think the $500 fly rod makes you more skilled than the guy with cheaper equipment... you may be the manufacturers dream customer, but you are quite frankly full of yourself. you are indeed a snob, no matter how much you profess to not be one. it is truly disgusting behavior, and it's no wonder so many gear fishermen look down on fly fishermen with that kind of attitude.

    some of the best fishermen i know and have had the pleasure of fishing with don't flyfish, and that's a fact. you may think you're better as a fisherman, but your thoughts make you a worse person and after reading that i'm actually a little ashamed to be grouped together with you as a flyfisherman.

    chris
     
  11. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Bob - that's the whole problem right there. You are defining what makes a person a 'better fisherman' in your own ambigious terms.

    After all the hours dedicated to fishing and learning about fishing - I would hope you have been able to eventually grow into at least a 'good fisherman'. But only good at what skills you practiced and learned about. But many gear, bait and other types of fisherman manage to put in the time, study books\articles, and perfect their perferred method of luring fish to bite. The equipment used and clothes worn have nothing to do with it. In fact, I personally have more respect for those who are truely masters at catching fish - while using the lowest budget gear they can. But of course - catching ability is only part of the equation. The other attributes of a responsible, respectiful sportsman need to be considered as well.
    Why would you expect that you were a better fisherman than your new friend just becuase his gear and attire was more simple than yours? I sure hope you didn't make that assumption just based on gear and clothes. Good fisherman are good fisherman. A good dry fly fisherman is a good dry fly fisherman (but maybe only on a lake but not a river). A good indicator\nymph fisherman is a good fly fisherman. A good spoon fisherman is a good spoon fisherman. Being good is being able to fish the gear\method of your choice, and find a way to consistently intice fish to bite while being a good steward of the environment.

    As for my earlier commnets - they were not directed at you, but rather the whole concept of 'purist' fly fisherman.

    I don't doubt that you are good at the type of fishing you prefer. Simply being a fly fisherman doesn't make you a snob. Thinking you are a better fisherman because you are better at YOUR very specific method(s) (and you spend more money on gear and clothing) is pretty self centered and elitist. Many other fly fisherman like myself feel differently and don't want to be lumped in with the 'purists'.

    By the way, had a great time on the river this morning with another board member. We didn't judge eachothers clothes or technique, we just enjoyed ourselves :thumb
     
  12. Stephen Rice

    Stephen Rice Senior Member

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    Sorry I wasn't clear enough. when I said Trout or "Steelhead" averaging 12 to 16 inches" I was including Steelhead into the picture. Which is really just a trout. and I if you wanna know I have fished Merrill lake and caught browns 12 to 18 inches. and the Yakima or the rocky ford of course and Lake Chopaka,(there are some big fat bastages there!)and lake Chelan and for Sea runs any where on the coast or along the Columbia... that's just off the top of my head I am sure the guys out there could tell you more (if there not secret spots). Also when I fish I usually throw back anything under 12 inches and I only keep one or maybe, maybe two. I am not into catching 20, 30 fish in a day. I don't see the point to it because I am the only one that's going to be eating the fish. I feel really successful if I catch 5 in one day and darn awesome if I get one over the 13 inch mark. but I don't consider that a big fish, Average for a trout yeah, but big not hardly.
    Ain't Washington Great !
    Steve
     
  13. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    Chris- check your personal messages.
     
  14. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Chad, I thought we were pretty elite this morning! What with both of us having new 8 wts with new reels and lines! Heck if someone would have come along he could have thrown $350 at us and he could have probably walked away with both set ups! And we know they are good set ups because we both caught the same branch LOL
    My point: The best equipment in the world does not make one the best fisherman. A particular fly is no more pure ethically than another. A flyrod is no better than the person using it and the ethics the fisherman applies to himself.
    By the way I had a hookup about a half hour after you left, right in front of the fly eating tree. A group of fish moved up that were really active! It took it on the start of the swing right on top and pretty sure was fair hooked. A few heavy headshakes and it bolted and popped loose.
     
  15. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    If anything I have ever written either here or in anything I have ever authored elsewhere that suggests I judge a fisherman or a person by the clothes they wear, let me set that little bit of junk straight: No, of course not! Nor does Mr. Maxwell I would presume.
    The whole point is being missed here; this is not about snobery or elitism in any sense.
    It is about evolution or to use a word much more easy to understand "change." We change as we grow older, as our interests grow, and our skills change with this maturing. That's it. Nothing more. Make a huge thing of all this but the kernel of the corn is in the word change.
    Having fished all methods, particularly gear, I find fly fishing more fun, more effective in getting done what I want to do. What I want to do is enjoy.
    The spots I fish are mostly very secret; sometimes I fish all day without encountering anyone. Were my desire to put on the snob, I would have to change venues. I don't know as I've ever met very many flyfishermen who were snobs. They are almost always very expert in their ways, very concerned and caring individuals about the environment, and just damn nice people. That's one of the reasons why I hang out here.
    I don't understand this venom about snobs. Where does it come from? Certainly, you can't be so angry just because of me. I'm not that important. It must be you've got a ton of others on your agenda. Where did you meet them?
    Every now and again, we get a group of gear guys, I guess, who jump in here, take some shots at the forum and its members, and then leave.
    Guess I need to dial up some gear sites and piss on everyone for a bit and then run when the shjits hits the fan.
    Bob, the T'ain't worth it. :beathead