Bad fly shop

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by triploidjunkie, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,488
    Likes Received:
    638
    Is it against the copyright laws to save photos posted on the internet to your computer for use as screen savers, desktop backgrounds, or to play as a slide show at fly tying expos while you tie?

    I admire many photos that I see and would think others would like to see as well.

    (I try and save the person's name if possible for future reference too.)
     
  2. Kyle Smith

    Kyle Smith DBA BozoKlown406

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,738
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Location:
    Bozeman, MT
    Man, the Drake is annoying...
     
    enlightened likes this.
  3. scottr

    scottr Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    124
    Location:
    Chasing trout and birds

    I am not lawyer but it is my understanding that if you are using someone else's intellectual property for any purpose without permission it could be construed as copyright infringement. It does not have to be for commercial use. There is not a hard and fast rule, there are some uses that might be considered fair use, like printing an excerpt of a book for the purposes of providing a literary review or using as a short quote to support a point in an article but the law can be a little squishy.

    In your example showing another persons work in a slide show at a fly fishing expo would likely be a violation of their copyright.
     
    enlightened likes this.
  4. tkww

    tkww Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    290
    Location:
    WA
    Couldn't agree more.

    Sorry, but that's complete BS. An employee that does something an employer doesn't wish or "shouldn't do" can happen in any size business. A small business might have the luxury of more oversight, more likely to have seen clues before something this ridiculously blatant happened, etc.

    Again, what was Orvis supposed to do? Create a list of thing you shouldn't do--it could be infinitely long--and email out on a weekly basis for "emphasis"? No employer would reasonably expect to have to tell an employee not to steal. (Or murder, or lie, or any number of things we all generally accept as necessary behavior in our society.) This is not to be confused with business that purposely lie, but I'll get to that in a second.

    And I would think that paying the hospital bill would be completely reasonable. My owning of the dog and not keeping it locked up properly led the problem, it would be my responsibility to make it up. And Orvis did that. We can have a discussion about whether or not Orvis has done a good enough job of promoting "honesty" in their employees, but as I've already stated, I don't think that someone stealing on their own is a reflection of Orvis. You apparently disagree and blame it on their size, even though you give absolutely zero evidence of incident being a reflection of Orvis' corporate culture.

    Here is my issue: Orvis is company that makes decent fishing gear, some of it is even great. They provide fantastic customer service. As a company they've contributed to conservation efforts all over the place. Their employees have contributed to this board. They have contributed to my local fly club. All in all, they seem pretty much like a model company.

    And then because one dude somewhere does some jackass thing, you go off and bashing them because of their size, implying that they are reckless with their handling of employees, don't know how to supervise, etc. And base all this on one instance from them and then countless vague attributes of other companies. And in that one instance that you base this bashing on, they took actions to correct it. So WTF is your problem with them? If you want to go off about investment banks and the state of our financial community where the whole point is to sell a lie, fine, but what's your deal with Orvis?
     
    Irafly and David Dalan like this.
  5. scottr

    scottr Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    124
    Location:
    Chasing trout and birds
    Any company who puts an employee in charge of a social media account needs to train those employees in both law (liable, copyright, trademark) and social media best practices (don't feed trolls, don't lie, don't create fake accounts to increase likes, don't use other peoples property).

    I'm sure someone at Orvis corp will be sending a memo to the stores about this since they just paid for a bunch of photos they had not likely budgeted for.
     
  6. tkww

    tkww Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2006
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    290
    Location:
    WA
     
    Irafly likes this.
  7. generic

    generic Justified

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,721
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    Bottom line, people lie, cheat and steal in every company/government/religion. It's a fact of life.

    Look up the definition of accountable, then decide whether or not Orvis was held accountable.
     
  8. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    19,315
    Likes Received:
    4,288
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Seems Orvis Corporate level quickly acknowledged that somewhere way down the food chain someone on their payroll did something improper. Seems Orvis Corporate made contact with the intellectual property owner to make it right. Seems the intellectual property owner is now satisfied, has had a bit of publicity and may stand to even gain from being acknowledged as good with the lense. No doubt there will be some internal recalibration throught Orvis. Many respected companies do this recalibration from time to time. Finding a way to do things right or make things right is what separates very good companies from those that seem to care less about such things.
     
  9. generic

    generic Justified

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,721
    Likes Received:
    1,579

    a.k.a. "they held themselves accountable"
     
    Ed Call likes this.
  10. constructeur

    constructeur Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,828
    Likes Received:
    893
    Location:
    Seattle, Wa
    Is there an echo in here? :rolleyes:
     
  11. fredaevans

    fredaevans Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    3,169
    Likes Received:
    156
    Location:
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Funniest thing I've read in a couple of days. My Daughter sent me 'some stuff' she'd found from my 'youth' and some in the bottom of the box. "I went back and read it a few years ago and it was a piece of crap anyway. It certainly has no practical application today."

    God can I relate looking back 50'ish years. My 'brown eyes' just proved I wasn't a "half quart low" ..... In my early 50's (think I got that right) back to University and it was GLORIOUS to raise my hand and say BULL XHIT! When you've worked in the financial industry for 25+ years you can smell it from a mile away. Amazing how 'clueless' a lot of these people were about working in "The Real World."
     
  12. Steve Saville

    Steve Saville Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    770
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA
    Heck. yes! I was about as green as it got and had only the book learning that the professors were teaching. After a few years, I realized that they are so far away from what they are supposedly preparing us for that they are clueless of the real world. That could be a major problem in the teaching force, today. I always said it took five years in a classroom before a new teacher was worth anything and I still stick with it. And the thesis really was hilarious to read. I had no idea how to write anything, much less a position paper of length. If I had to re-write it, I would surely change about 99%. The 1% would be the introductory page with my name on it.:eek:
     
    fredaevans likes this.
  13. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,488
    Likes Received:
    638
    FinLuver said:
    Is it against the copyright laws to save photos posted on the internet to your computer for use as screen savers, desktop backgrounds, or to play as a slide show at fly tying expos while you tie?​

    I admire many photos that I see and would think others would like to see as well.​

    (I try and save the person's name if possible for future reference too.)​
    --------------------------------------------------​

    I am not lawyer but it is my understanding that if you are using someone else's intellectual property for any purpose without permission it could be construed as copyright infringement. It does not have to be for commercial use. There is not a hard and fast rule, there are some uses that might be considered fair use, like printing an excerpt of a book for the purposes of providing a literary review or using as a short quote to support a point in an article but the law can be a little squishy.

    In your example showing another persons work in a slide show at a fly fishing expo would likely be a violation of their copyright.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    I would think in the case of expos, this would be a form of free advertising for the tyer or photographer...at the very least, it would stroke the "ego" (not that fly tyers or photographers are at all into that...hence, the many posts on internet forums).

    DISCLAIMER: Just know, that if you excel with feathers, fur, and lens...and post on the internet...I most likely have your image saved on my computer for future "use"...and will give credit where due. Any monetary compensation you seek will not be relinquished; but if you ask nicely, I'll remove your pic from the "world" view...just not from my computer. :D
     
  14. fredaevans

    fredaevans Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    3,169
    Likes Received:
    156
    Location:
    White City, Oregon, USA.
    Yes and no on copy write infringement. If posted on the Internet for the full use of the viewer the 'owner' would be hard pressed to file a claim. The real exception to that is if you used the picture(s) for personal gain, as in a profit. There you're open to question.

    The real issue is the cost of filing an action in Court, and which one and where. Atty's love these kinds of actions ... just watch the advertisements on TV (is that's all at 0100 - 0230 in the morning????)
     
  15. scottr

    scottr Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    124
    Location:
    Chasing trout and birds
    That is not the way it works, "free advertising" is at the discretion of the rights holder, and again you can do things without financial gain that are still a violation of copyright law. You don't get to decide how to use someone else's property and a disclaimer does not relinquish you of liability. In fact, by putting a photo credit you may be implicitly acknowledging someone else's intellectual property and could make for a stronger case from the complainant (and I think thrice damages).

    Real case in point that I am personally familiar with. A individual took a PDF scan of another IP holders book (a large publisher) and posted it to the website Scrib'd. This person did not make any money in the act of giving the book scan away but did violate the IP holder's copyrights. The IP holder filed a DMCA notice with scrib'd and successfully took the sacn down but not after tens of thousands of downloads. The IP holder also went after the individual in court and was successful in winning a $100,000 summary judgment against the person who knowingly posted the book to Scrib'd.

    If you want to use someone's images in your slide show do the cool thing and just ask politely for permission. Explain how you intend to use them and see how it goes. Worst they can say is no.
     
    Freestone likes this.