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Casting thoughts, and questions

1K views 19 replies 12 participants last post by  Smalma 
#1 ·
Hello all,

I have been fishing on a farm pond out on Vashon Is. every night for the past week or two. First a bit of back ground and details: I would call myself a low to intermediate fly caster. I can cast comfortably about 40 feet of fly line plus the 9 foot leader without birds nesting my fly or throwing a tailing loop pretty consistantly. I can get about another 10 or 15 feet if I double haul a touch, but I need work...I usually fish with a 4 piece 5wt GL3 and a Scientific Angler's WF5wt Trout mastery series line which is 2 years old.

My questions: When I have a heavier weighted bugger or streamer on my line, I seem to get a Hinge effect (I taper down to a 5x tippet). I have noticed that I also have problems "bringing" the line up and out of the water on the back cast. My loops also do not seem very tight. (I have been working on mechanics and timing but seem to be stalled)

I do not seem to have these issues with dry or nymph...What can I do to help compensate for this issue? I feel like there is something I should be able to do to compensate in my stroke, or timing or leader set up that can help me deal with the heavier weight...

Finally, I know this is silly (I have been fly fishing for about 20 years) But I really want to be able to have good line control when casting more than 40 feet of line, and ideally I would love to be able to throw 60 to 80 feet...I know everyone says most fish are caught inside of 40 feet, but still it would be nice to have the capability to "reach" for that extra distance.

Any help and insights would be much appreciated.

Best,
Griswald
 
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#2 ·
Hey Griswald,
When I have a heavy bug on a lighter rod, I usually just retrieve it untill I have about 20 ft out or so and then pick it up. Sometimes I do a roll cast first to get my line up and then straight into my backcast. That works pretty good for a silent pickup. That way I'm not scaring away any fish when I pick up the line. To cast longer I do a double haul with tight loops and just shoot it out there. It helps to have a slick line, its probably time to change your fly line. Also, I have noticed alot of people break away from there form when they are trying to cast out of their range. Try very hard to be aware of that when you are casting that far. Anyway thats my suggestion.

good luck
 
#3 ·
Some things I do when casting heavier flies are to shorten my leader a bit and change to a heavier and stiffer tippet material. Another thing to try is to test out a GPX line which is about a half weight heavier than a standard line. It may be your rod needs the bit of extra weight. I know that my 6wt Sage handles much better with the 6wt. GPX line.

Dave
 
#5 ·
If you're looking for instruction, check out the video "Lessons with Lefty". In it, Lefty Kreh teaches one how to teach fly casting. However, it will also make you a better caster in the process. It does a good job of explaining the whys behind casting. It might be hard to find, but I bet someone like Amazon.com has it.

John
 
#7 ·
Matthew Grunwald said:
Hello all,

My questions: When I have a heavier weighted bugger or streamer on my line, I seem to get a Hinge effect (I taper down to a 5x tippet). I have noticed that I also have problems "bringing" the line up and out of the water on the back cast. My loops also do not seem very tight. (I have been working on mechanics and timing but seem to be stalled)

I do not seem to have these issues with dry or nymph...What can I do to help compensate for this issue? I feel like there is something I should be able to do to compensate in my stroke, or timing or leader set up that can help me deal with the heavier weight...


MATT, A WEIGHTED BUGGER OR STREAMER WILL CAUSE HINGING FOR VIRTUALLY ANYONE USING A 5X TIPPET. FOR BUGGERS AND STREAMERS, YOU NEED TO USE HEAVIER LEADERS AND TIPPETS, BOTH, TO CAST THEM EFFECTIVELY. HERES' THE SCOOP, AS YOUR 5X LEADER IS TRYING TO 'TURN OVER' THE FLY, AS THE CASTING LOOP UNFOLDS, THE 5X CAN'T HOLD UP THE WEIGHT OF THE STREAMER/BUGGER, AND THE LOOP COLLAPSES. A SMALLER NYMPH WON'T OVERPOWER THE THE LEADER WHICH MAY BE SOME OF THE REASON YOU'RE NOT HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH THE NYMPHS. I SAY 'SOME', BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU MAY HAVE SOME TECHNICAL CASTING ISSUES, AS WELL, SO THE LEADER ISN'T PROBABLY THE ONLY CULPRIT. HOWEVER, THAT ONE IS AN EASY ONE TO FIX, JUST WITH A CHANGE OF THE LEADER AND TIPPET.

ALSO, BECAUSE THE STREAMER/BUGGER WEIGHS MORE AND BY VIRTUE OF THEIR DESIGN AND SIZE HAVE MORE WATER RESISTANCE, THEY ARE MORE DIFFICULT TO GET MOVING OUT OF THE WHEN YOU START YOUR BACKCAST. A BIG MISTAKE A LOT OF FOLKS MAKE IS, AS THEY START THEIR BACKCAST MOVEMENT, IS NOT HAVING THEIR LINE TIGHT OR HAVING THEIR ROD POINTED STRAIGHT AT THEIR FLY. IT SOUNDS REMEDIAL BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE OVERLOOK THIS CONCEPT, BUT IT IS IMPERATIVE, PARTICULARLY WITH WEIGHTED FLIES OR FLY LINES, THAT YOU GET YOUR LINE AND FLY MOVING TO START YOUR BACKCAST. YOUR ROD AND FLY LINE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON UNTIL YOU GET THAT FLY LINE MOVING. HUGE DEAL.

ALSO, WHEN CASTING A STREAMER, BUGGER, OR HEAVIER-THAN-NORMAL FLY, YOU NEED TO OPEN UP YOUR CASTING LOOP A LITTLE. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU MIGHT BE ALREADY DOING THAT UNINTENTIONALLY (GRIN) . . .


Finally, I know this is silly (I have been fly fishing for about 20 years) But I really want to be able to have good line control when casting more than 40 feet of line, and ideally I would love to be able to throw 60 to 80 feet...I know everyone says most fish are caught inside of 40 feet, but still it would be nice to have the capability to "reach" for that extra distance.


ATTABOY. A LOT OF FOLKS LIMIT THEMSELVES ON THEIR CASTING DISTANCES BECAUSE OF THAT 'MOST FISH ARE CAUGHT WITHIN 40' CONCEPT. IF YOU ARE A NYMPH AND DRY FLY FISHERMAN, THAT CONCEPT IS APPROPRIATE; HOWEVER, IF YOU FISH STREAMERS, PARTICULARLY FROM BEACHES AND BOATS, YOUR CATCH RATE WILL INCREASE THE FARTHER YOU CAN CAST. THINK ABOUT IT; YOUR FLY IS IN THE WATER LONGER AND MORE OFTEN IF YOU CAN CAST FURTHER. ALSO, IF YOU BECOME PROFICIENT AT LONGER DISTANCES, IT INCREASES YOUR CASTING PROFICIENCY IN THE SHORTER DISTANCES. YOUR OVERALL CASTING SKILL INCREASES.

HOWEVER, DON'T FORSAKE ACCURACY PURELY FOR OBTAINING DISTANCE. I'VE SEEN PLENTY OF FOLKS WHO COULD CAST A COUNTRY MILE BUT COULDN'T HIT A TARGET; AND VICE VERSA.

Any help and insights would be much appreciated.

GET SOME LESSONS. THEY ARE INEXPENSIVE, AND WILL GET YOU UP THE LEARNING CURVE MORE QUICKLY. CASTING IS ABOUT GETTING YOUR FLY EFFECTIVELY, AND PRESENTING IT PROPERLY, TO THE FISH. THE BETTER YOU CAST, THE MORE EFFECTIVE YOU WILL BE. THINK OF IT LIKE GOLFING. FOLKS PRACTICE AT DRIVING RANGES. EVEN TIGER WOODS HAS A HITTING COACH. THE MORE YOU PRACTICE, AND HAVE IT BE 'GOOD PRACTICE' AND NOT PRACTICING BAD HABITS, THE BETTER YOU WILL BECOME, AND I BELIEVE THE MORE SATISFIED AND CONFIDENT YOU WILL BECOME WITH YOUR OVERALL FISHING AND CATCHING PROWESS.

BUY SOME HULA HOOPS, BUY A PRACTICE FLY LINE (TO USE ON GRASS), GET SOME LESSONS, AND PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

RICHARD :ray1: :thumb:
 
#8 ·
Matthew Grunwald said:
Here is another question...how far would you say most of you cast when lake fishing? Either in a boat, tube, or on shore...
As far as I can, generally, if I'm 'blind casting' and not casting to a specific target. I hope and wish it's the entire line or close to it, if the conditions allow it.

If I'm lake fishing and using dries, probably no more than 50 feet, to ensure effective line control on 'takes'. Streamers and nymphs, chuck it baby!
 
#9 ·
All good suggestions. Shorten the leader, use one with a fairly stiff butt section. I really don't think you want to taper to 5X, with a weighted bug I usually stay around 3X.

You will typically be stripping your bug towards you as you fish. When you are ready to re-cast try lifting your rod to about 45 degrees lifting as much line out of the water as you can. You don't really need the water tension to load the rod as the remaining line and fly will help load the rod for you. Learn to use a single haul on your backcast - this will accelerate the fly out of the water and get you ready for your forward cast.

The single biggest problem I see with people fishing weighted bugs is not letting the line completely straighten out behind them before beginning the forward cast. Especially when using weighted bugs and weighted lines. Force yourself to wait until all of the line straightens out before beginning your forward cast. This should help eliminate some of the hinging you are seeing.

Hope that helps some.

Jim
 
#10 ·
Ok, when lifting your fly off the water you need a little extra power in your stroke, but its not the power thats important. What is important is where you place that power in the stroke. Power applied late in the stroke with a strong wrist flip will tighten your loops big time and increase line speed. Watch these to movies to see what i mean. The first guy is Rich Hartman, who is probably the best distance caster i have ever seen, is tracking is near perfect, and he has the wrist flip goin' on. I think this cast is over 120' with a 5wt tcr and floating sage xxd.

http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/rickhartman.shtml

Here is Ian Walker, he wins many casting events he enters, because he is so consistent. Watch how his long stroke and perfect timing help hold 90 of line in the air.

http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/ianwalkerwf.shtml

Casting is very complex, and I don't know even to give you a proper analysis, but this site will really help, most of the casting nuts hang out here.

www.sexyloops.com

When I first found wff i thought to myself...where is the casting info? Then I releazed, most of these guys are wicked good fisherman, and don't care about how tight there loops are because they are catching to many damn fish.

Peace,
Andy
 
#11 ·
What do you mean by getting a hinge effect? When I cast big weighted flies I can sometimes feel a "thunk" as the line straightens out. Is that the same thing?

My casting ability sounds pretty close to Griswald's. 40 feet pretty regularly, 50 feet if everything goes well, at least with smaller flies. After that I start to panic and get sloppy. :rofl: )
 
#12 ·
Matthew:

You didn't mention the particulars of the rod, but I believe that most GL3 rods are not particularly fast. This may limit your ability to form and cast tight loops (tight loops are partly a function of rod speed, partly of technique).
Practice, practice. Tennis players and golfers do, don't they? This includes recreational duffers as well as competitive players. I've never understood why fly anglers are loath to practice their casting.
As has already been indicated, a 5x leader is a handicap for casting heavy flies; not only for casting dynamics, but a vigorous strike is likely to break that light a tippet. Practice with a well-tapered leader and a small piece of bright yarn.
With your present tackle and with good technique, learning to cast to 70 feet and beyond is realistic. The fact that you know how to double haul is a major asset. Keep using that until you double haul without thinking about it, as I do with all but short-distance casts.
 
#13 ·
You know, this board is the best of all of them. I goto many about alot of subjects and hobbies and I am always blown away by the knowledge base here. Thanks to all who have taken the time to answer! I have learned alot today.
Last spring I did take the Washington Fly Fishing Club's beginner's casting class at Greenlake. It was the best $40 I ever spent. I also was practicing last summer. I need more practice. I will probably get a lesson or two soon. My GL3 seems what I call medium fast, (way faster than my old first generation Orvis graphite 5wt from 1985) so perhaps for more distance a faster rod? I am a lazy caster, so I don't want to get too fast, for example I went SRC fishing with a friend of mine last spring and he had a Sage Xi2 (Blue saltwater sage rod) in a 6 wt. I thought that rod was tooooo fast for me, I was like a 16 year old in a Ferrari, way too much, but my father in law has an old RPL+ I think that I really liked. I do think a faster rod may help, but I also know that I need to practice. (Which by the way I enjoy) Again I truly thank you all for your help... :thumb:
 
#14 ·
For almost any casting distance that you will be fishing the rod you have will be more than enough. I usually practice with a winston im6 which is the mother of all slow rods, and it will pound out 100' against the tape, which is way further than i will fish. It's not the rod, its how you use it.

Peace,
Andy
 
#15 ·
Yeah I know Andy... Some day I might get pretty good. Even though I am twice your age and have been fishin longer than you been born! I do know it is the caster more than the rod!

It is pretty cool that you were born with that gift...I truly compliment you on your great accomplishments so far and I know you will be (more) famous some day and I will say: "Yeah I remember that kid who used to post on the WFF board." P.S. How was Pennsylvania?

Best,
Matthew
 
#16 ·
In addition to the great comments so far...

Often times the cast of even experienced fly casters is non-symmetric. I know that I am working on improvements in this area. Usually people tend to use a much stronger forwards stroke since those muscle groups tend to be much better trained, coordinated and stronger.

Asymmetries caused by a weaker backcast can cause a casting break down, well, right around that 40 foot mark. The line rides high on the back cast and loses its tightness. This causes the forwards cast to crumble since the backcast does not provide the needed tight line for the forward pull. After that breakdown, the distance and control are pretty much gone 'till the next cast.

You might consider concentrating on the strenth and wrist action of the backcast such that it is stronger and more symmetric with the forward cast.

Sincerely, Chris.
 
#17 ·
Wow Griswald, I hope you realize the wealth of information you just got on this post. The problem will be putting the different concepts into practice.

Sixfinger and flytosser both have given you excellent methods for picking up line, and I use both depending on the circumstances. And you can combine them too: do a roll cast to set up your back cast, then single haul into your back cast. Gets it up and back in the ball game in a hurry; less time spent casting means more time for your bug in the water. Over the course of a day it makes out to maybe an increase of 5% casting efficiency.

If your fly line is still resilient and without nicks and abrasions, just give it a good cleaning and treatment every few outings to keep it that way. Then of course, maybe you need to try out a couple of different lines on a casting pond to check out what else is out there. A fly fisherman can never go wrong by buying more gear. :)

About the only item I disagree with on the tips provided here are those talking about tightening up your loops. As pointed out by Richard, when fishing a weighted streamer, but more so when using a weighted nymphs and buggers, you gotta open up your loops. Not excessively, but you need to prevent the little recoil at the end of the false cast that flips the weighted fly 90 degrees or worse, from the track of the fly line. This sort of "hinging" is caused by the weight acting as a counterbalance and flipping out of the casting track.

When casting weighted nymphs, especially when with a weighted dropper nymph and split shot, I sometimes picture myself as a cowboy tossing the weighted buggers over my head like a large lariat, but more in an ellipse than a circle. [by the way Richard, turn off your bold and the caps, its like yelling on line ]. You can use lighter tippet OK for weighted flies using this type of cast, but your casting distance is definitely limited, and I use it only when fishing upstream. It's really not a true cast, more of a toss.

If you want to narrow our loops then you gotta pay attention to the area focused on by Zen and others, and at the end of the back cast you drift back with the length the rod travels, let the line straighten out and gradually reverse directions with increasing speed, placing the power in the last part of the stroke before you come to a sudden stop.

The other 'hinging', occurring when the line should be straightening out but doesn't and kind of folds back on itself, is generally rectified as discussed by flytosser and wet line; be sure to match up your tippet and leader butt size to the size and weight of the fly being used.

By the way Griswald, to consistently cast 60 feet of line you need to have down the basics; after that, each additional foot comes with an increasing amount of work as all the little things only add to your casting distance a smaller fraction.

IMO, distance casting is one of the most pleasurable aspects of fly casting, and if you fish the Puget Sound, you certainly get bonus points for being able to cast out your entire fly line. I practice on my own until I get frustrated enough to pay the money for a coach for a couple of hours to help me climb to the next level, plus I have some of the tapes mentioned above, and they all add to it.
Good fishing,
Jim
 
#19 ·
I talk to some people that think..."oh distance casting is stupid, i can get it out there 50 feet and I'm good with that" Then a wind comes up, they get tailing loops, and are stuck flailing. People think its lame that some folks pratice a fair amount and can rip out an 80 foot double haul, but being albe to do that means that you fundamentals are solid, and you can cast to areas that others can not. Anyways, keep praticing, it will serve you well.

Peace,
Andy
 
#20 ·
Matthew -
Just a couple comments to add to the all ready excellent advice. As flytosser said I have found that when fishing larger bugs a leader that is stiffer in the butt section is a huge assest. For that reason I have gone to tying my own leaders - my streamer leader of say 7 feet for my 5 wt rod will have a butt section of 4 1/2 feet of 25# and 20#, several short sections stepping down to a 3X tippet which will be about 18". This helps carry the energy from the line forward through the leader with less hinging. If you use manufactored tapered leaders try using ones several sizes larger (0x tippet).

Depending on your casting style many of today's rods seem to load up better with a line weight heavier than rated for the rod. Find a buddy with several lines and try casting different lines - you may find a better fit. This is less critical for those blessed with better timing that others. Believe me my coordination leaves a lot to be desired (and is getting worst with age) but with practice and an outfit that fits my style decent casts are possible. My typical stream fishing (steelhead excepted) is in the 30 to 50 foot range, nymphing often in the 30 and 40 foot range, while streamers it is more often in the 50 to 70 foot range. At a few feet for lakes and my streamer hucking in the salt from a boat (salmon, lings etc) is typically in the 70 to 90 range.

As everyone has said - practice, practice. find a comfortable length and fish it until it is second nature and your accuracy is good and then lenght a few feet.

With sinking lines and/or weighted flies the biggest mistake I see some make is to try to pick too much line on the first back cast. A shorter line is easier to handle and pick up line speed - try varying lenghts (20 to 30 feet) to see which fits you.

One aspect of fishing the bigger/heavier bugs that is also overlooked is that knots will fatigue. It is heart breaking to finally get bite by a great fish to have the tippet pop. Almost always knot fatigue contributes. After much experiementing I strongly recommend tying some sort of double knot - the Trilene knot is a good one. It can hold up under an hour or more casting and/or double digit numbers of fish.

One of the many things so great about fly angling is that there is no end of things to tinker with.

Good luck
Curt
 
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