Cowlitz wild fish

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Dan Page, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Dan,

    No. Genetic sampling has been done on population groups in the Cowlitz as elsewhere. There is no point in doing a DNA analysis of this specific fish. We know what he came from. Late winter steelhead from the Cowlitz hatchery population have been stocked in the upper watershed since 1995. The late winter steelhead are legacy fish from the pre-dam natural population that were taken into hatchery production for 30-plus years until re-introduction into the upper basin began. This fish was captured and marked on its downstream smolt migration. It is the product of natural production, but it has a hatchery legacy in its past just a few generations ago.

    Unmarked steelhead show up at the barrier dam every year. Since 2004 the wild run has ranged from around 300 to 800 or 900 the past couple years. The run should double or more when Tacoma installs the downstream passage facility it agreed to in 2000.

    Sg
     
  2. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    So much for the theory that...."Hatchery fish are 'inferior' to wild fish....and they don't do well reproducing in the wild." :oops:
     
  3. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    FinLuver,

    It's not a theory. It is the conclusion of every scientific inquiry that has looked into the subject. However, being less effective than wild fish when it comes to reproduction in the natural environment is not the same as zero effectiveness. (And for additonal clarity, the phrase "not statistically different from zero" as applied to Chambers Creek hatchery steelhead is not absolutely zero, either.) Hatchery fish have been stocked in the upper Cowltiz basin since 1995 as part of a re-introduction effort. Eighteen years is four and one-half generations for fish that are typically four-year-olds. With each passing generation of natural reproduction, the re-introduced fish are becoming more like the endemic native wild fish that originally inhabited the upper watershed. The pictured fish is evidence that the effort is showing some sustained success.

    Sg
     
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  4. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    Sg,
    13 years ago, looks like they are moving right along. ;)
    Any idea what decade the passage facility might actually be built?
    SF
     
  5. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    Probably the same time Bertha finishes boring her hole.
     
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  6. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    " With each passing generation of natural reproduction, the re-introduced fish are becoming more like the endemic native wild fish that originally inhabited the upper watershed."

    Funny...those "same studies" say the contrary.

    guessitdependswholobbyingthestats:oops:
     
  7. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    What studies? I'd be interested to read up on that.
     
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  8. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    Seems to me naturally reproducing hatchery fish in the wild would eventually develop survival traits like their wild cousins. The glitch is in the first few generations there would be low survival with these hatchery X hatchery crosses and lower survival with hatchery X wild crosses as many studies indicate. I would think after a few generations of these crosses you would begin to have some hardy wild-like fish. If a run of wild fish were in a threatened state this initial process could reduce wild #'s and hardiness significantly for a few generations or in the worst case lead to it's demise.
     
  9. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    FinLuver,

    That part of my post that you quoted is my projection and not the product of any study. However, like PT I'm not aware of any of the hatchery/wild interaction studies saying the contrary. Only that the data say that hatchery fish reproduce less effectively in the natural environment.

    I don't know how one goes about "lobbying the stats" if you're suggesting that data and conclusions are being manipulated to conform to an agenda.

    So what do you think happens when hatchery fish are introduced to and allowed to reproduce in the natural environment for successive generations? Does their reproductive success remain static at the low level of the F1 generation that was re-introduced? If so, why? The fish in the upper Cowlitz basin are subjected to the same pressures of natural selection as wild fish in any other river. Wouldn't you expect selection for attributes that are most fit for the natural environment, and wouldn't that move each subsequent generation toward the same fitness possessed by wild populations in general? If not, why not?

    Sg
     
  10. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    When I was very active in NWSSC we tried the same approach to trap and move fish above Howard Hansen Dam on the Green River (late 80's through mid 90's). Like the Cowlitz, there is some absolutely great water above the dams and the hope was that the fish would survive the downstream migration and this would rally help the returns. But politics and problems with the Corp, WDFW, and tribes ensued and it never turned out as hoped.

    My largest steelhead ever was caught up near Shangrila (some of the older members may know where that is)...21 lbs weighed (legal back then)...I'll never forget it. Caught many, many on the Cowlitz in the upper teens back in that time frame as well. It really is a damn shame these once fabled rivers are in such tough shape.

    But, as you note, the mitigation from the power companies and tribes looks to be paying dividends and hopefully this can be replicated on other systems...sooner than later.
     
  11. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    Check out the studies that the Steamboaters and Mckenzie River Fly Fishers quote often in their lawsuits.

    I'm not always in agreement with "their" studies that support their case(s).

    btw...it's on the internet...if one takes the time to look.;)
     
  12. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    many of us have been following the hatchery x wild debate for some time and have read as many of the relevant studies as possible. the idea that there are studies showing positive hatchery x wild interactions comes up from time to time on this forum and it seems like the pro-hatchery folks either cannot show us a study or tell us to google it (the internet ages version of "F off!")

    if these studies actually exist it would be nice if you would post them so passionate anglers and conservationists could read them.

    if you won't post them, we'll continue to think you are not someone who is serious about honest debate.
     
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  13. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Interpretation; "we' are passionate anglers and conservationists... (unlike some of you). Plus, he misses the point that this is wild-hatchery stock. rofl1.gif
     
  14. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Don't put words into others mouths. Let people speak for themselves. Mr. Bellows was quite clear. He did not say what you are charging that he did. Pretty fucking rude if you ask me.


    I agree with Chris. I would love to see studies that show wild X hatchery interactions being positive. If there were a plausable safe way to use hatcheries to increase runs with existing wild stocks I would be thrilled. Hell we have the hatcheries already.



    Go Sox,
    cds
     
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  15. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    Seems to me it's been done and being done. How does one explain the hatchery fish in the upper Kalama with tags requesting these fish be released? Don't know what the game plan is here, but they are there for some breeding purpose.