Cowlitz wild fish

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Dan Page, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. Phil Fravel

    Phil Fravel Friendly

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    I don't believe that was Ferrstonanglers point.

    Most likely a reference as to how the state manages its escapement goals. They are not meet year after year until a river is toast. One would have to wonder why only 500 fish enough. Ok so the science says so. Are we still challenging that science to make sure it is true? You cant help but to look at the Pink runs of the past 10 years "I know its a different fish". Plenty of fish, and plenty returning, no escapement goals Same dams same habitat same global conditions.
     
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  2. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Don't try and change the point here with your silly question. Steelhead stocks are declining and the trend is downward as a whole...some DPS already earning places on the ESA. When the long term trend lines are reversed, then well know the factors causing the declines are being resolved and that should be the point at which we discuss opening a river system for fishing.

    In the case of the Skagit, I'm saying not to fish it -- because that, for sure, will not be a contributor to any further damage and is within each of ours immediate control. Yes, I will definitely take the bus with a known destination... can only hope others will choose to do the same.
     
  3. _WW_

    _WW_ Geriatric Skagit Swinger

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    Silly question! Just because you have no answer doesn't make it silly.

    Show me, hell, show all of us the PROOF that C&R fishing is a contributor to decline. There are several scientists on this forum that have explained things to you over and over and yet you refuse to believe them because you "think" you know better than those that actually do the hands on science! Your main purpose is to spend your time at the keyboard arguing trying to get a reaction out of me and others.

    Fine. I will take one for the team.

    You are a pathetic example of the blind wanting to lead the blind, have no credibility, and what I'm sure you perceive as your "cuteness" is nothing but a irritant to the rest of us. Please, for the sake of the fish, pack up your belongings and remove them and your carbon footprint from the area!

    Exactly when will steelhead be "saved" or "survived" or whatever other sensational phrase you want to use?
    When? How many? Give us the answer!

    Please! Somebody fucking ban me from this site so he doesn't involve himself in anymore of my discussions.
     
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  4. Drifter

    Drifter Active Member

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    So after following this thread and others of this nature about wild steelhead what everyone wants on this site is a petting zoo?

    I thought the main goal was to get wild fish numbers back to good enough returns to have take fisheries in most river systems throughout the northwest. It seems by reading this it's just like the anti hunters (tree hugger) not wanting people to kill deer and elk. If the main goal is a petting zoo I want nothing to do with it! If the goal is to get wild runs back to good enough numbers to have take fisheries than I'm all in.

    Managing for 500 fish and catch and release being the goal seems like a horrible Idea to me. Managing for 500 fish and keeping it that way for the few that want catch and release seems very "PLEASE THE FEW" and fuck the rest of the people to me! The truth is there are thousands if not a million people to think about on this subject not just fly fisherman. Fly fisherman only make up about what? 10% of the fishing community. which means 10% of the money from lic. sales. I agree with freestone if you want them back quit fishing over them and let them come back! to make some petting zoo for the few is insane!!! let the numbers come back to harvest levels and than start fishing again! But of coarse I'm a simpleton!

    So what is "THE MAIN GOAL" for the future??????
     
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  5. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    I think it would be awesome to have fish in harvestable numbers. I'd love to be able to go fishing, catch and kill a fish, and bring it home to feed me and my friends and my eventual family. That is certainly part of the reason I volunteer for different conservation organizations, donate money to them, write letters to my legislators and others, and support movements like Occupy Skagit.

    I see creating a "petting zoo," as you put it, as a step in the process. As has been noted over and over again in these threads--CnR fishing does not have an impact on fish abundance. There are several other factors that do, and I personally am doing what I can to change those factors. Will it work? Who knows?!

    I think it should be less a question of what is the main goal for the future, but more what is YOUR main goal for the future. I think your goal is a good one, and I hope you are doing whatever you can to make it happen!
     
  6. Phil Fravel

    Phil Fravel Friendly

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    Back to the Cowletz.

    It would seem to me that if you are going to fill a river with Hatchery fish "Petting zoo" The Cow might be the river to do it in. With nothing but wild fish making it above barrier dam. And then recycle all fin clipped fish. Lots of guides work on that river along with many gear fisherman. What ever strays that wonder in to the other tribs. could also be harvested.

    It is my understanding though that the agreement with Tacoma power states something like they are committed to 650,000 lbs of fish. That includes Chinook,Coho, Steelhead, cutthroat.
     
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  7. Chris Johnson

    Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

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    Mark K, in 1997 the Oregonian did a survey and asked people to give their reasons for saving salmon, the numbers may be a bit different here but it should be instructive. Here are the results:

    36%- Because Salmon are part of the Northwest history and heritage
    35%-As a gage of water quality and the environments health
    9%-For sport fishing
    8%- Just to know they are there for personal or aesthetic reasons
    6%- For commercial fishing
    2%-I don't care
    4%- Don't know or no response

    We are just above the petting zoo.

    Seriously though I don't care if I ever kill another Steelhead. My main goal is to do what I can to make sure we save these magnificent fish and where ever practical, see that they rebuild there numbers.
     
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  8. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    "Seriously though I don't care if I ever kill another Steelhead. My main goal is to do what I can to make sure we save these magnificent fish and where ever practical, see that they rebuild there numbers. "

    How many have you killed in your lifetime?
     
  9. Chris Johnson

    Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

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    Quite a few, but that was another time under different circumstances. It's probably been 30 yrs. or more since I bonked a wild fish, hatchery fish are another story.
     
  10. Jerry Daschofsky

    Jerry Daschofsky Moderator Staff Member

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    Just curious why you asked how many he's killed in his lifetime?
     
  11. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    Perspective
     
  12. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    "Quite a few, but that was another time under different circumstances. It's probably been 30 yrs. or more since I bonked a wild fish, hatchery fish are another story. "

    What circumstances? How are they any different from now?
     
  13. Drifter

    Drifter Active Member

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    Yes Chris, I don't care if I ever kill another steelhead either but managing a return of 500 fish to the few seems not the type of goal I would support. I tend to think of the general population of people as a whole since I have fished with so many people for so long and have family history from back to the 30's fishing the northwest rivers for steel.

    Those numbers are interesting that you posted :)

    I'm for saving the fish and doing what it will take to do so. so I quit running rivers in both our states at least 7 to 8 years ago.

    Since this is about the Cowlitz I would like to mention also that the three rivers to the south in Washington that are being targeted for no stocking is going to be a big change in angler pressure on other rivers! I feel sorry for the Cowlitz fish but more so for the Kalama and northern Oregon fish that will get more pressure from the fisherman who used to fish those three rivers like I used to.

    I agree with the 3 rivers going wild only but would rather have them shut down completely if the counts of wild fish are far enough down, why keep pounding on them and say "WELL, I'M JUST CATCH AND RELEASING"
    The Eastfork is one of my favorite rivers to float of all time since my brother moved to Washington in the early 80's and we both had drifters. The thing is I would stop fishing them all together rather than keep pounding on them. I quit fishing the Eastfork around 8 years ago.

    The problem is that the other rivers will now see that pressure - mostly the Kalama so when will we have to shut that river down? is it next? people who have stayed away from the Cowlitz because of power boats (like me ) now will have very little choice. will now flock to it like cattle!

    Thank you for the kind response's, I was expecting to get flamed but this thread isn't over :)

    When I wrote petting zoo I was talking about 500 wild fish management for a few catch and release fisherman being the goal - you know catch a fish, pet it and let it go! like roping a bull elk and petting it and letting it go! People still wont like anyone landing fish just to release it just like they wouldn't like roping a bull elk just to let it go.

    The Cowlitz has been a blood bath fishery (calling it as I see it) for a long-long time. I like the idea of separating the fish like they used to do on the sandy before they took out the dam.
     
  14. Jerry Daschofsky

    Jerry Daschofsky Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, you do realize quite a few champions for C&R were fish bonkers back in the day. Look at a lot of the greats from yesteryear. I have numerous books of flyfisherman in the NW up to the 70's bonking wild fish.
     
  15. FinLuver

    FinLuver Active Member

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    "Well, you do realize quite a few champions for C&R were fish bonkers back in the day. Look at a lot of the greats from yesteryear. I have numerous books of flyfisherman in the NW up to the 70's bonking wild fish. "

    Yes...I know Jerry.

    And some on another thread (and "some" who are on this thread as well) thought I was some sort blasphemous heretic for saying so. Fish have been in dire straits since the late 1800s and early 1900s, hence the hatcheries which for the commercial fisheries (and only is "recent" times for the recreational fisher); but now that the "self-centered orgy" is over (for some) there is a mindset that is wantonly dictating to others.

    As was stated, it would be nice to bring the runs of "wild" fish back to levels that can recreationally harvested. My proposal on that respect would be a "harvest" of - 1 summer steelhead, 1 winter steelhead, 1 spring salmon, 1 fall salmon, 1 coho, and 15 trout per season. (There are no pink salmon in Oregon that I know of [or at least where I fish]; and ALL chum salmon would be off limits.) After all... Do we really need a freezer full of fish??