Mark, It bums me out to see you taking swipes at people. You took a couple at me in this thread, and plenty at other people. I might have returned the favor once or twice, but it all sucks. I don't recall you doing much of that until your "perfect loops" thread got such negative review. Not everyone is going to agree with you, and believe it or not, you occasionally say things that don't make any sense. Get a thicker skin... Regarding the actual content of the thread, I can't say I've been moved much by what James or you has said. I never tried to disprove any law of physics, and I agreed with everything said about the effectiveness of springs. I've only tried to be sensible of the limits of how that translates to actual casting/fishing when used in a simplified model. At one point, I recall you making the statement that the perfect rod is weightless. You've both made the statement that the same action/load/feeling/etc... can be attained with ultra light weight or weightless material by adding weight to the line and/or adjusting the taper. I don't think it is that simple, certainly not to the extent that eliminating inertia in the blank should be the overriding design goal of every builder. My point has simply been that blank inertia has a positive role to play in casting & fishing. We use it every day, but a simple model would have us believe it's the bogeyman. I'm not suggesting adding mass, but I believe there are limits to the benefit of removing mass, and I think as casters, there is much to be gained by being sensible of the role of rod inertia. As I already pointed out, flexing the rod against it's own inertia creates a predictability in the energy you have to unload that is independent of what is taking place with the line. Whether we realize it or not, we do this all the time, but less so with ultra low inertia rods, as they are less capable of it. What I realized last night is that I was injecting a subject matter and conversation that I am interested in into a dialog that is related, but ultimately a poor forum for my interests, which are grounded in how to get the most out of the dozen or so rods in my rack, and less inclined to what we will be casting in 20yrs. Around a year ago, I posted a thread on "sway" over on Speypages that didn't get much attention. I would like some review of my thinking on this to see if it's crap or not, but honestly, this thread has probably sucked my will to type BS for at least a few months, especially seeing as the rivers are getting ready to open.