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Flyfish steelhead (DD) a sponser now?

9K views 65 replies 34 participants last post by  FT 
#1 ·
I just noticed that Dennis Dickson's a new site sponser. I know folks have a love-hate relationship with him (either you really like him or really don't like him). I have never fished with him but I know he likes to mention his UW fisheries degree and has been a strong supporter of wild steelhead (and char too) release for a long time. I guess I'm kinda surprised that this topic hasn't been discussed yet or did I miss it?
 
#44 ·
It is NOW, was it 20 years ago?!??!? People are going to insinuate he was acting illegally when he might not of been.

PS: The people who have just joined to praise DD, if the were DD or Jeremy, Chris would boot them, delete the post, and boot DD as a sponsor. That is just the ethical kind of guy Chris Scones is.
 
#36 ·
You guys should be ashamed.

The things you listed haven't happened for years. I bet you guys would like the opportunity to move forward in your lives from things you quit doing years ago. If that is the case, why then can't you apply that to the people around you?

Dennis is a good guy. He deserves better than the treatment you are handing out.

That law is very very very poorly written for a fly fishing only river and EVERYONE knows it. The catch method is identical. The only difference between someone who is targetting steelhead or salmon is their mindset because the fly pattern, fly size, fly color, and sink tip are all identical. That is one of the most charcoal colored "gray areas" I have ever seen legally. You guys should know how hard it is to pick a steelhead out of the faster water behind the chums in the NF Stilly in November where there are always more anglers than steelhead. The numbers are obviously stacked in the chums favor and it isn't like they ignore a streamer.
 
#39 ·
I agree that they should be able to move on. Was just adding a little background to some of the bad taste some have. Others just don't like the marketing (like 'secret guide flies' and all that).

But to your point about targeting vs incidental - spare me. I was there with 2 co-workers. I was new to the stilly and salmon fishing in general. Figured Dennis knew what he was doing and didn't really look at the regs (always do now). Wondered why he didn't post many of our awesome 'hero shots' of monster chums on his web page like he said he would... We litteraly caught fish on each cast in the first pool of the morning. It varied from coho to chum, but mostly chum. We sat on them so long having a good ole time, but I got a little bored and asked to move on. He really didn't want us to leave so soon (45mis) because one of the guys hadn't caught\landed as many as the other 2 of us. He started out saying "this fly will catch all species" and later when the fishing slowed it was "this is a great chum fly" fish it this way for chum, or do this for the silvers. Never did we talk about steelhead flies and\or presentation.

But I appreciate that you at least admit it happened in the past and I'm very happy they have moved on. Personally I think Dennis is an outstading fisherman who knows how to get people into fish. And I like that he isn't afraid to buck tradition and think outside the box to figure out the fish. And I think he's a good guy and a good guide.

I also think the internet is a blessing and curse to some guides. More business opportunity - yet more accountability if you try to push those 'gray areas' a little too much...

You guys should be ashamed.

The things you listed haven't happened for years. I bet you guys would like the opportunity to move forward in your lives from things you quit doing years ago. If that is the case, why then can't you apply that to the people around you?

Dennis is a good guy. He deserves better than the treatment you are handing out.

That law is very very very poorly written for a fly fishing only river and EVERYONE knows it. The catch method is identical. The only difference between someone who is targetting steelhead or salmon is their mindset because the fly pattern, fly size, fly color, and sink tip are all identical. That is one of the most charcoal colored "gray areas" I have ever seen legally. You guys should know how hard it is to pick a steelhead out of the faster water behind the chums in the NF Stilly in November where there are always more anglers than steelhead. The numbers are obviously stacked in the chums favor and it isn't like they ignore a streamer.
 
#37 ·
I don't know diddly about what they do or do not do, or what they have done.

However, an angler knows what he/she is targeting. Ambiguity in the regs is a BS copout. Err on the side of caution.

Don't read into this more than I am writing. I have no idea if DD targets a closed species on the NF. I can't really say that I care.

My point is twofold...

1. Only DD guides can be sure 100% if they are/are not targeting closed species. If any of them choose to target a closed species (especially with clients who may not know any better) then they officially suck balls and are a disgrace.

Guides must (IMO) adhere to a higher standard, like it or not. They're often regarded as "the example" of what is best, finest and most effective in angling. True or not it is a widely held perception.

2. Guides are under more scrutiny than joe blow the angler. If you ride that line (say "incidentally" catching 20 chums, when angling for them is closed), you're going to get lip for it. If you don't like the way people respond you can (a) stop doing what they complain about or (b) ignore them. Defending yourself just makes you look guilty.

And as I said before, I also welcome new sponsors.

I'd even book for '08 on the GR campouts if they'd ever e-mail me back :)
 
#38 ·
I will put in a call and get back to you via PM David.
J

I spent two days on the NF Stilly this year specifically trying to pick steelhead out from behind the chums while I was prefishing some of my favorite riffles for upcoming trips. I caught so many chums I gave up the second day at lunch because they were everywhere. Also the first day I broke my rod so I didn't even fish 3 hours. I also steered my clients away from there (except one who insisted on the Stilly so we fished low) and took them a bit farther north to the other rivers specifically because of my prefishing experience and because they were booking steelhead trips.

I posted pictures from my daily photo journal that I keep every trip I go out on. I don't mind taking heat for trying to fish a day or two ahead of my clients in an attempt to find them the best experience I could. I was out there a bit early in the season trying to see if any steelhead had moved up the river system yet.

That was me. Not Dennis.
 
#40 ·
amazing how the river changes from week to week. When I floated it targeting cutties with my dad this fall, we barely saw any chums, a few silvers (one incidental hooked), but did catch lots and lots of the cutties we were targeting. I'm not sure we could have even caught a chum if we wanted - they just weren't there. But again the rivers change quickly...
 
#42 ·
Chad,

I caught a silver this year on something around a size 10 oct caddis pattern in the top foot of the water column while SRC fishing. It happens.

Can you honestly tell me that the method and flies you use for SRC are similar to what you use for steelhead and salmon or are they vastly different? I know when you called me up to ask questions specific to that trip as to where you should be fishing on the Stilly, and what flies you should use, that none of the small fly patterns I recommended would draw the attention of a chum because you were after SRC. Wasnt that trip also early November or late October too before the river had even come up much?

Also I see you using large weighted purple streamers now for steelhead. Don't you think that would have changed not only which area of the water column you were fishing but also the type of fish that would be interested in the fly? If you were targetting steelhead at that time I believe your experience would have been very different.

I dont think, if you are in any way making a comparison, that you are comparing apples to apples.
 
#48 ·
Chad,

I caught a silver this year on something around a size 10 oct caddis pattern in the top foot of the water column while SRC fishing. It happens.

Can you honestly tell me that the method and flies you use for SRC are similar to what you use for steelhead and salmon or are they vastly different? I know when you called me up to ask questions specific to that trip as to where you should be fishing on the Stilly, and what flies you should use, that none of the small fly patterns I recommended would draw the attention of a chum because you were after SRC. Wasnt that trip also early November or late October too before the river had even come up much?

Also I see you using large weighted purple streamers now for steelhead. Don't you think that would have changed not only which area of the water column you were fishing but also the type of fish that would be interested in the fly? If you were targetting steelhead at that time I believe your experience would have been very different.

I dont think, if you are in any way making a comparison, that you are comparing apples to apples.
If I was fishing over a pool loaded with chums splashing about, I surely wouldn't tie on a weighted purple fly, catch several in a row, and then try to say I was just steelhead fishing...

If it got to the point I couldn't even work the non standard chum water while looking for steelhead and hook them anyway, I'd get tired of breaking them off and probably switch to fishing for cutties or just quit and enjoy the rest of the float.

I'm done with this post. Feel free to PM me if anyone wants to discuss further. After all the squeaky clean praises, I just wanted to pipe in with some first hand experience and say the problems some folks have ARE legit. I also respect Dennis for moving on from such practices. We all make mistakes...
 
#51 ·
Dennis is obviously an outstanding fisherman and a top notch guide. He is also a chest thumper and self promoter. I don't say that in a bad way, he's built a small empire working the internet. Some of his claims on fly patterns and colors are questionable to me. The olive beadhead damsel is an exact copy of William Survey's legendary "Olive Willie" beadhead designed 39 years ago. William named it after his son Willie who died falling off of a cliff while hiking with with his father. Every lake fishermen in Washington has tied on an Olive Willie or the beadheaded version over the last three decades. Many of us have had the honor of fishing a few William tied just for us. I e-mailed Dennis when I first saw it on his site a couple years ago and respectfully asked him to call it the Northwest name. He included my letter on my website which was first class in every respect but could not bring himself to give final and ever-lasting credit to the local boy. He makes claims of being the first to fish this fly, this color, this line. His claims about pioneering the Hoodsport Fishery could be considered controversial. Hell, the Yancy system is a glorifed version of the Amnesia and shooting head system the Golden Gate Casting Club was tossing back the late 40s and early 50s. Lastly he loves to tell us he is a fisheries biologist. Well, frankly, most of us know there are talented fish-first people in that fraternity, but he was also on duty when things really went to shit. What did he do? He started taking out as many people as he could in one man pontoons as many days as he could flossing the shit out anything in the river, regs or not. There is even a legend about him being ticketed on the North Fork as a biologist years ago for fishing a sand shrimp on a fly line. There is another one of him fishing illegally and saying it was for scientific reasons. Now are these my beliefs? The part about the Olive Willie is, the rest are things that are muttered often in flyshops, by buddies, but North Fork residents. The Neah Bay guiding with no Captain's Liscense is another. He was anti Spey Rod for years, but now says he never said that. I don't even know him so I am not in a place to say or confirm any of this except my "Olive Willie" event. I am playing Devil's Advocate and throwing out common things I hear time and time again by our own, who seem to have disappeared when this thread was posted. In fact with all of the things I have heard about Dennis, I am dissapointed nobody has the balls to throw it out there. I like his fishing reports and have read them for years. I do have one question: What is "swimming a fish"?:hmmm: Anybody who is successful will have detractors, especially in our business. It's interesting how you never hear people bad mouth Brazda, Kinney, or many others. Dennis bring controversy and that's that. He's a whole lot more interesting than alot of the stuffy types that frequent our world. I hope to run into him someday and shoot the shit with him. Maybe even crack a cold one if he has 10 minutes. I bet he's an interesting, knowledge filled and lively conversation and a good Northwesterner. :beer2: Tight Lines Coach
 
#52 ·
There were also the advertised guided salmon trips on the Sauk (which hasn't had a salmon season for 20 years or so, and Skagit for areas on the Skagit that weren't open to salmon or for salmon species that did not have an open season when he advertised, booked, and took people on the trips, while making the claim that it wasn't his fault if the salmon just happened to grab a fly being fished for steelhead or dollies. Or having a group of his steelhead students go into a run on the NF Stilly and take it over for hours preventing others from fishing it (which I witnessed first hand).

No Sir, he has done nothiing to warrent the ill feelings many have toward him.:rolleyes:
 
#54 ·
There were also the advertised guided salmon trips on the Sauk (which hasn't had a salmon season for 20 years or so, and Skagit for areas on the Skagit that weren't open to salmon or for salmon species that did not have an open season when he advertised, booked, and took people on the trips, while making the claim that it wasn't his fault if the salmon just happened to grab a fly being fished for steelhead or dollies. Or having a group of his steelhead students go into a run on the NF Stilly and take it over for hours preventing others from fishing it (which I witnessed first hand).

No Sir, he has done nothiing to warrent the ill feelings many have toward him.:rolleyes:
I don't know the guy (Dennis) at all, but . . .

FT, you've never heard of someone fishing for an open season species on certain water when they know full well they'll likely hook up with a species that was closed on that water? People talk about it (and profess to it) all the time in this forum. :confused:

Also, I've been on the Stilly before where several buddies will hang out in a certain hole for hours, preventing anyone else (including me) from fishing the water. And, how do you know Dennis's students were there for hours? Does that imply that you were also fishing (hanging out) on some water nearby where you could witness this Stilly occupation? Heck, putting a positive spin on it, them hanging out at one hole means they stayed off of all those other holes on the river, and left them available for you! Many local (Puget Sound area) who conduct saltwater beach fishing classes wil conduct their on-water seminars at popular beaches, effectively taking over the beach for hours at a time. :confused:

Again, I don't know the guy, but I don't see the controversy in these examples.
 
#55 ·
Controversy. Do we need to define it? Anytime Dennis' name comes up it stirs up all kinds of responses, many of them controversial just like the the difference in opinion on "posting up" on a hole. Personnally I like it when guides piss pound one small part of a river. I drift by them if the river is sled free and piss pound everything below them.;) Or I drive up above them and fish that water and then drive down below them and fish that water. That's what jet sleds are for. On the Skagit and Sauk, Dennis can throw in as many pontoons as he wants. I'll fish where he and the rest of the guiding fraternity aren't. There is always good water to be had, and if you can actually read it well, there is alot more than most people think. Or you can sit around waiting for your turn into Buck Island, or the Mixer or Two-Bit or any of the other "Disneyland Rides". We all know that.:beer2:
 
#59 ·
Attaboy. If folks are pounding or spending inordinate amount of time on certain stretches of water, that means there is a whole lot of water that isn't being populated/fished at that moment. Like you, I see that as opportunity. :thumb:
 
#58 ·
Richard,

Just because people fish flies and line types that will most likely catch a species that has no open season while professing not being able to help it if one of the closed species "just happen to take my fly" doesn't make it right or OK to do. I'd bet if someone was using steelhead dries or wets on the Yakima in the fall and a gamie happened to come by, said angler would be ticketed for targeting a species with no open season despite any protestations he might make about "not being able to help it if a steelhead happened to take his fly".

Also, You mean you see nothing wrong with a guide advertising and booking trips to target a species with no open season? I believe this fits the definition of poaching, even if no fish are kept.
 
#60 ·
Richard,

Just because people fish flies and line types that will most likely catch a species that has no open season while professing not being able to help it if one of the closed species "just happen to take my fly" doesn't make it right or OK to do.
Agreed.

Do you fish the Stilly during the Fall when the salmon are in? If so, then you are one of those folks you note as "Just because people fish flies and line types that will most likely catch a species that has no open season while professing not being able to help it if one of the closed species "just happen to take my fly" doesn't make it right or OK to do." Regardless of intent, but do you ever fish water that has in it a species to which fishing is closed? I'm guessing highly likely.

In the fall many of the salmon in the Stilly jump all over many different patterns. While fishing for summer steelies I've hooked up many different anadromous species, including coho, pinks, chums, searuns, steelhead, etc. Heck, a buddy of mine on that river landed a large bright adult chinook that inhaled his steelhead caddis dry.

Fishing any water that is shared by both open and closed season species, there is a chance that the closed season species will take the fly.

Does Dennis do some uncool things that are borderline? I don't know, and it appears that many of the folks here don't KNOW either. If he advertises fishing for a closed species, that's uncool. Generically fishing in the water that has closed species, it's allowed.

We sometimes need to look in the mirror, and apply our morality brush equally to all, including ourselves.
 
#61 ·
Like Black Oak Arkansas, it's obvious that some people love DD and some people don't. For the sake of some new content here, how 'bout we just agree to disagree, and move on to something else?
 
#65 ·
Richard - the advertised trips specifically said "salmon" were the target. And as a past client, I can say were definately targeted and caught many many salmon - sitting on top of schools of chums and silvers til it got boring.

Oh - I forgot I was done with this...

This isn't about incidental catches since we all do it from time to time. It's about making a profit off of puprosely targeting a closed species... to put it bluntly.
 
#66 ·
Richard,

Chad's recent post says all that needs by said.

To answer your question about fishing the Stilly in the fall: I haven't fished the Stilly past Labor Day for 13 years in large part because I get tired of seeing a lot of folks targeting salmon and fishing where there are a lot of salmon porpoising, which is not typcially where steelhead lie.

Plus if a fisherman uses a floating line and small unweighted or dry fly, the chances of him hooking salmon upstream of Arlington is very, very small.
 
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