for the skeptical

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by TomB, Feb 2, 2007.

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  1. otter

    otter Banned or Parked

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    For the really, really sceptical.......... from Mr. Zimmerman -

    Johnny's in the basement
    Mixing up the medicine
    I'm on the pavement
    Thinking about the government
    The man in the trench coat
    Badge out, laid off
    Says he's got a bad cough
    Wants to get it paid off
    Look out kid
    It's somethin' you did
    God knows when
    But you're doin' it again
    You better duck down the alley way
    Lookin' for a new friend
    The man in the coon-skin cap
    In the big pen
    Wants eleven dollar bills
    You only got ten

    Maggie comes fleet foot
    Face full of black soot
    Talkin' that the heat put
    Plants in the bed but
    The phone's tapped anyway
    Maggie says that many say
    They must bust in early May
    Orders from the D. A.
    Look out kid
    Don't matter what you did
    Walk on your tip toes
    Don't try "No Doz"
    Better stay away from those
    That carry around a fire hose
    Keep a clean nose
    Watch the plain clothes
    You don't need a weather man
    To know which way the wind blows

    Get sick, get well
    Hang around a ink well
    Ring bell, hard to tell
    If anything is goin' to sell
    Try hard, get barred
    Get back, write braille
    Get jailed, jump bail
    Join the army, if you fail
    Look out kid
    You're gonna get hit
    But users, cheaters
    Six-time losers
    Hang around the theaters
    Girl by the whirlpool
    Lookin' for a new fool
    Don't follow leaders
    Watch the parkin' meters

    Ah get born, keep warm
    Short pants, romance, learn to dance
    Get dressed, get blessed
    Try to be a success
    Please her, please him, buy gifts
    Don't steal, don't lift
    Twenty years of schoolin'
    And they put you on the day shift
    Look out kid
    They keep it all hid
    Better jump down a manhole
    Light yourself a candle
    Don't wear sandals
    Try to avoid the scandals
    Don't wanna be a bum
    You better chew gum
    The pump don't work
    'Cause the vandals took the handles


    Copyright © 1965; renewed 1993 Special Rider Music


    Now, to quote from Snyder -


    "Dillingham, Alaska, the Willow Tree Bar"


    Drills chatter full of mud and compressed air
    all across the globe,
    low-ceilinged bars, we hear the same new songs

    All the new songs.
    In the working bars of the world.
    After you done drive Cat. After the truck
    went home.
    Caribou slip,
    front legs folded first
    under the warm oil pipeline
    set four feet off the ground -

    On the wood floor, glass in hand,
    laugh and cuss with
    somebody else's wife.
    Texans, Hawaiians, Eskimos,
    Filipinos, Workers, always
    on the edge of a brawl -
    In the bars of the world.
    Hearing those same new songs
    in Abadan,
    Naples, Galveston, Darwin, Fairbanks.
    White or brown,
    Drinking it down.

    the pain
    of the work
    of wrecking the world.


    (From Axe Handles)



    And finally, from Jerry Garcia

    "What a long,

    strange trip its been"


    Last, from me, Otter.


    Every day of my life, I wake up, and realize that

    the trip begins fresh every day,

    until I do die do die do.

    What does this have to do with steel?

    Every day is a fishing day.

    And we all make compromises.

    Finis.

    otter
     
  2. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Some people learn later in life of the mistakes they made earlier. They often are the ones who speak with the greatest wisdom. Learning from one's mistakes doesn't make one a hypocrite.
     
  3. otter

    otter Banned or Parked

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    I dunno - I've definitely made a lot of shithell bad decisions in my own life.

    But I've never connected that with the possibility of being an elitist hypocrite.

    Somehow getting my ass kicked immediately for being stupid doesn't hook up with hypocrisy...................

    otter
     
  4. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    Sure wouldn't hurt to connect those dots.:D
     
  5. otter

    otter Banned or Parked

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    A problem common to us all.


    otter
     
  6. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Well said. If some one were giving me a a bet with a 90% chance of it coming through, I would take it every time.

    Oh and everbody that is complaining about why the US is being picked on is because we produce 25% of the worlds garbage and use more oil on a per day basis than France, Great Britain, and Germany combined. We are the worlds biggest consumers, why does this suprise anybody? Logically isn't it smart with the biggest areas of pollution with the technology and economy to do it.

    I don't think of getting rid of fossil fuels as a problem or cost, I see it as an opportunity for the US who produces the most food in the world to become the biggest ethanol producer in the world. This would save us a ton of money in the short and long run. Gas is never going to be cheaper than it is today. Ethanol gets cheaper and cheaper with advancing technology and use.

    Switching to any kind of renewable energy would also give the US a whole new industry...more jobs, more taxes paid, and a stronger economy. Also throw in the bonus of not having to pay billions of dollars in tax money to subsidize US farmers.

    Brazil did it why can't we?
     
  7. Dave Grimmer

    Dave Grimmer Member

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    I agree with most of what you say, but Brazil has a different climate than we do. When their sugar cane market dropped out from under them, they had to deal with it. Sugar cane is a much better crop for producing ethanol than corn or switch grass. We can get good at producing ethenol from our crops, but it will take more time and energy to do it effeciently.

    dg
     
  8. Kyle Smith

    Kyle Smith DBA BozoKlown406

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    Though I just skipped five pages of presumably blahbety blah crap, I guess I'm gonna have to get all hypocritical and join you guys. Talking on an internet forum is about as small of an effort as we can put in. Stating your environment opinions on a 99% conservationist website is like putting a "kill the fuckin terrorists" sticker on your GMC Jimmy and driving through Northern Idaho.
    Though I'm probably lazier than most of you guys, let's do something about all this global warming shite soon! Cars are only part of the problem:
    <img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Greenhouse_Gas_by_Sector.png">
    We need to completely re-develop our sources of energy, which will cost trillions. So we're screwed.
     
  9. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    If we could go the way of Brazil, it would be nice. Problem is they have, i believe, a much longer growing season allowing for 3 crops a year.
    I understand to even attempt this course, would mean clearing an "additional" 100 Million acres of land. Seems doing that would counter the said purpose. I have to say though, that i feel a 100 Million acres is hardly enough. It would be a measurable result, but my simple math says thats only about ONE acre per vehicle in this country. One acre will not drive your car for a year. I admit, this is only my stupid opinion.

    (p.s. Touche' Otter)
     
  10. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    Here are some facts about global warming from someone completing an Archaeology MA and a study on PNW climatological cycling:

    Climatic cycling is natural

    Increases in temperature, and fluxuating sea levels are totally normal

    The late Pleistiocene and Holocene, roughly the last 14,000 years, have been marked by especially rapid changes in temperature, both as increases in temperature and decreasing temperature. When human first began populating this region (app. around 13,000 years before present), the area we know as dominated by cedar and hemlock forests, were temperate tundra - an ecosystem which no longer exists. The disintegration of the temperate tundra ecosystem was totally natural.

    Depending on the section of the PNW (an area I'm describing as Southern Oregon north to Cook Inlet, AK), sea levels have risen and fallen 50 meters.


    HOWEVER:

    This most recent climatic spike (meaning the last 300 years), is unprecedented in any of our records (obtained primarily through glacial coring).

    Variations of carbon levels in the core samples suggests an extremely high rate of burning fossil fuels as the most likely cause for this potential spike.

    Vehicles are a huge problem, but the burning of coal in China as an energy source produces significantly more impact on the change in climate than the burning of fuels in the USA.

    This would imply that more powerful, wealthy nations (like the United States) have a responsibility both to provide an example of better environmental standards with their own action, but also to pressure and encourage those other nations such as China (with which they are primary trade partners) to improve their environmental standards.

    I just felt like with the glut of opinions some facts were necessary. The last portion is only my deductive reasoning that i feel is supported by facts. anyone that cares to interpret this in a different way, hurl personal attacks, debate facts/figures, or accuse me of being a communist, feel free to PM me, rather than forcing the whole board to read it.
     
  11. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    No it doesn't make one a hypocrite to learn from your mistakes, but I seriously doubt that he considers his two youngest children "mistakes".

    But telling others that they shouldn't experience the joy of having children while enjoying his four children and subsequent grandchildren does make one a hypocrite.

    Now, if he were willing to sacrifice two of his children to get below the replacement level.....
     
  12. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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  13. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    Studies have shown that overall individual happiness actually decreases when you have children. We of course belive otherwise, or how else would we propogate our species, a nifty little adaptaion.

    I do feel that this is the only way to work out a long term solution to our problems--to stop over populating.

    Furthermore, someone mentioned that scientists predicted mass starvations and used this as an attempt to discredit science in general. This is a faulty comparison at best. First and foremost--we where reaching the earth's carrying capacity. This was of course raised by the Green or agricultural revolutiuon of the 1970s (If my memory serves me right).

    To everyone who keeps bringing up the predicted Ice age. One must remember that this was a time when you'd have been lucky to fit a computer in your living room. Technology, science and what we know and understand about the world had changed dramatically and will continue to expand. It's not perfect now, but it's a lot better than it was in the past.
     
  14. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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  15. otter

    otter Banned or Parked

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    Yow Boy Howdy -

    "not directly reproduce" as far as I know doesn't set any population quotas per couple.

    Hmmmmmmmm. Snyder + 4 wives + 4 children = 5 adults, 4 children, which = .8 children per adult.

    Which brings me to one of my favorite homilies, which is "figures lie, and liars figure".

    This is not pointed at you, personally.

    We have the law of averages operating here. Some people have 10 kids, some people have 0 kids.

    Overall, the human population is overwhelming the environment.

    I personally would not choose the Maoist solution of jailtime for those who exceed the "replacement level". This is pure micromanagement and doomed to fail from the gitgo.

    So, as to Snyder's thesis about sharing children and limiting population growth (my comment: his having four kids is statistically insignificant and well within the scope of his argument), just exactly what is your solution to this challenge?

    i.e., are we counting the number of angels that can be fitted onto the head of a pin here, or a realistic way to confront the crisis?


    otter
     
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