Grande Ronde HELP 11/2-11/4

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Nate Dutton, Oct 29, 2007.

  1. Steelie Mike

    Steelie Mike Active Member

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    Yes if you stack mend the fly down in the water column so that it goes straight down and ded drifts. This can be very effective for salmon. They fly does not swing using this method until the line straightens out and starts to float back to the surface and shore. I was taught this method in BC when trying to get sockeye to bite. I also use this method a lot when fishing bulls on the Met with streamers.
     
  2. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    I nymph almost exclusively with a type III tip for trout. For me it's virtually no different than when I was indicator fishing with a floating line.... same speed, same water, and same fish to be found. The only difference is that the fly swings up through the water column at the very end of the drift, and I mean very end, because I stack mend downstream until the fly is below me. The reason I like it better is because It's more traditional and I catch bigger and more fish-- being that I'm in touch with my line and don't have to rely on a piece of yarn or plastic to tell me a fish likes my fly. I'm not swinging, because I'm presenting the fly to the fish vertically in the water column, rather than horizontally.
     
  3. greyghost

    greyghost Member

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    Adam, have you ever tried nymphing with a sink tip on technical water such as spring creeks, or with very small flies such as midge pupae? It seems like your hypothesis of catching more and bigger fish would fall through the floor with the setup described.
    I like to swing for steelhead with a type 3 and a lightly or unweighted fly. Getting the fly 12-18 inches below the surface will put you in the zone of a lot of fish in classic steelhead water 3-5 ft deep. When water temps drop into the 30's, type 6-8 tips will almost always result in more grabs. Still I don't see how using wet flies or leeches and a type 8, swinging through the water column across the river is nymphing. I very, very, rarely cast upstream with tips because it almost always results in the fly swimming across stream too quickly especially where long casts are crucial. I prefer to cast between 45 and 90 degrees down and across depending on the water in the run I am fishing, then throw one upstream reach mend, and as soon as that comes tight following the fly with the tip. The line is tight continuously and the fly swims under tension the entire time I am presenting it across the river. Panhandle is the first angler I've heard describe this technique as nymphing.
    It matters not, opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one. The advice given above for the GR is good and is pertinent on all steelhead water. Try to fish runs that are rested and have features that hold fish. Cover the water thoroughly but efficiently, meaning don't spend all day one one or two runs. Work on your presentation, being sure to keep the fly in the zone as long as possible. Be curteous to others on the river and don't be an ass by chastising others that fish differently than you (unless they are snaggers or abuse wild fish). You are not God's gift to the world because you have a fly rod in your hand with a skater tied on the end.

    Pete
     
  4. greyghost

    greyghost Member

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    Mike,
    I have seen the method you described used a lot in situations with non-biting stacked salmon, and in my opinion it seems that in 90% of these situations fish are lined or flossed. Most of the time you see sinktips and long leaders which makes no sense unless you are attempting to floss. This is a common technique on Alaskan sockeye rivers and Great Lakes King fisheries. I have used tips casted upstream and stack mended on the Met for bulls, but most of my success comes with a down stream arch in the line and quick small strips that keep the streamer dancing but allow it to stay withing 12" of the bottom. The fish are not stacked and they are very agressive, they will move long distances horizontally to take a fly, just not far vertically in the water column.

    Pete

    Pete
     
  5. inland

    inland Active Member

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    SteelieMike,

    Top or bottom. Top or Bottom. Rare to find a fish in the middle. Really? Steelhead look up. They also hold in suspended lies. They also rise to the surface...all the way from the bottom. Sometimes in water 8+ feet deep. You can even see it happen in small rivers with unlimited vis (like the N. Ump).

    Nate,

    If you have any experience in reading water you should find some fish. Provided the river is in decent shape. Water temps are likely to be getting on the colder side and IMO you will be better served to fish a sink tip. Type III should be plenty and keep you out of too many snags. I would stick to flies in 1/0, 2, and 4. Rabbit leeches are an easy choice. Black only please ;) . But a trad steelhead fly like a Green Butt Skunk will work just as well. DON'T get hung up on fly pattern. It isn't why/why not when it comes to hook ups. Work on getting your fly to swing slowly through likely holding water. Set your swing with one good hard upstream mend to get depth and angle (again the river will dictate). Try not to mend too much, if at all again (river will dictate but let it swim your fly). Good luck.

    William
     
  6. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    Pete, I still inticator and high stick nymph on smaller water, but most of the moving water up here is huge trout water and as far as I'm concerned; very technical: Kootenia, Clark Fork, Upper Columbia, Spokane.
     
  7. greyghost

    greyghost Member

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    Adam, I guess I didn't mean technical in terms of water complexity, but more in trout selectivity where long leaders, small diameter tippet, and small flies would be critical in having cosistent success.

    pete
     
  8. greyghost

    greyghost Member

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    Nate, sorry that this thread has gone so many directions, but reading in between the BS, you have some excellent advice and you should be just fine and hook some fish.

    pete

    PS
    My confidence fly this summer has been a purple pick yer pocket. But hell the fly doesn't matter, anything listed on this thread fished correctly will get fish.
     
  9. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    :D, You certianly wouldn't have success tredging a tip on the bottom of silver creek. Not exactly stealthy.
     
  10. fullerfly

    fullerfly Calvin Fuller

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    I am still confused that people are saying that nymphing and swinging are the same thing...I guess when I think of nymphing I think of a "dead drift" with little angler/line/rod/current influence on the fly. When I think of swinging...even if you cast up stream and mend to get it deep..it is not a true dead drift there will still be bellies in the line that influence the fly. If you are nymphing with a sink tip the fly will be slightly "swinging" across the bottom even if it is moving at the same speed as the water that you are fishing....

    So in esence I just confused myself even more..... AH HAA! unless you are talking about a non "dead drifted" nymphing technique where the fly could be moving at the same speed as the current but is not dead drifted.
     
  11. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    Same old same old. Read between the BS in this thread and it's still just a bunch of Bull Sh#t! Guy asks a question and we turn it into the same old song and dance.

    Maybe I should just stick to the classifieds for a while..
     
  12. Steelie Mike

    Steelie Mike Active Member

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    I was talking about where fish hold while traveling and not weather they will move up or down in the water column to intercept a fly. If the fish will not move to the top then you might as well put it in their face. I have been fishing low water presentations all year and have had lots of success with them. I also get to see fish holding in small water move to a fly a lot on my local rivers. FYI the Snake and Ronde were very good to me this year at all levels of the water column.
     
  13. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    The reason you are confused is that nobody ever said they were the same thing. The discussion was more about the reason that nymphing is frowned upon.

    I was trying to clarify that nymphing to the modern fly fisherman is a different thing than nymphing 80 years ago.

    According to most people, purists only "swing" for steelhead and think "nymphing" is a bad thing. THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY TRUE!

    It is the "jig with tampon" rig that is the problem because it puts fish down, is tough to cast, is hardly traditional et cetera.

    It is THAT setup which gives nymphing for steelhead a bad rap.

    Heavy fly, indicator, those are the things which purists loath NOT simply the dead drift........which seems obvious to me but I suspect not so to some people around here.


    JUST READ BELOW

    Is it alright to qoute one's self?

     
  14. Panhandle

    Panhandle Active Member

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    PT, quit being such a baby.. jesus!

    Actually this is a pretty productive discussion in my opinion. I think the guy got what he was looking for, and the discussion has evolved into a discussion based upon something that hasn't really been touched upon here: nymphing with sink tips vs. swinging, or, can you nymph with a sink tip? I don't see a (typical) moral argument here, though Jbueler seems hell bent on making his point, which nobody seems willing to bite on. Put it down dude. Fuller and others.... You can dead drift nymph with a sink tip. Try to picture it in your minds eye. It just requires mending to keep the sink tip in the lower water column inline with the rest of the line. The subsurface tip doesn't have to get swept away from under water hydraulics. I'm speaking from experince... fishing the same water, reaching the same fish with the tip, that my leader would connect with when high sticking or indicator fishing.
     
  15. fullerfly

    fullerfly Calvin Fuller

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    "Yes all fishing of sink tips is "nymphing"...."

    Wouldn't "nymphing" be imtitating a bug in the nymph stage of it's life. So if one weren't swinging a nymph technically this wouldn't be nymphing. It would be swinging.

    I disagree when you say all fishing with sink tips is nymphing...but then that is just the wording...so this is going to go nowhere.

    Panhandle, I may begin to see how you can dead drift a nymph with a sink tip, that is how we use to bead fish clients in AK on extremely windy days from a boat. I just don't know why anyone would want too. If you actually had a dead drift it would last much shorter than with an indicator and long leader due to water influence on thicker line vs. thinner line. I am not saying that you can't nymph with a sink tip, the dead drift just isn't as true.

    This is my experience.

    cal