Hatchery brats: To bonk, or not to bonk?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Mingo, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. Matt Burke

    Matt Burke Active Member

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    This is not “just an internet room.” We are a very tight group of gentlemen who show nothing but respect for our fellow anglers and their opinions. It is very unfortunate that this thread didn’t work out that way. This isn’t just some video game where you can just blast away, reset and start over. If you can’t show respect, then get the hell out of our community.

    I just bonked.
     
  2. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    When a person thinks they have all the answers they will defend their limited perspective at the expense of all other views. Maybe someday they will open up their minds rather than their mouths.

    There are THREE sides to a coin, heads, tails and the edge. And so it is with most issues and all sides have a degree of validity.

    Dave
     
  3. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    Ethically there may be many sides, but scientifically there is little grey area considering the influence of hatchery fish on wild fish. Just read some literature so you can understand wetline et al. before taking the easy way out. The more you know the more you will care.
     
  4. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    Gordon- did a bully kick sand in your face at the beach? What's with the attitude? Chill out kid.
     
  5. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

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    Alright... I'm not going to read all 80 posts. I don't know if this has been mentioned, but aren't these Hatchery Fish considered a Put-N-Take fishery. I have always believed these fish were raised with the intent of being taken by fishermen.

    Side Note: Porter, drop the doobie and step away! Wolves have not been re-introduced in the OP. It has only been discussed.
     
  6. wet line

    wet line New Member

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    Gordon, thanks for making my point. You attack with no knowledge of my views on the issue. So scientifc and so well thought out on your part.

    Dave
     
  7. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    uh okay. didn't attack you , just suggested you read.
     
  8. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Gordon,

    Sure, it’s only an internet bulletin board. It can be taken down to the least common denominator, which appears to be your interest. Or it can be a constructive place to exchange information that is useful to many people. We each have a choice to make, which contributes to the outcome. Go ahead and make yours one that aims for the bottom. Some of the rest of us value the potential of bulletin boards that are “only internet forums” to acquire and exchange valuable information.

    Since you’re a person who, by self admission, doesn’t care, it’s probably consistent with your style to attribute the status of PS steelhead to Curt’s single-handed contributions to their management. You write like you think you know a thing or two, but if you do, then you also know that no single fish manager, Curt or otherwise, nor even a single agency, such as WDFW, is responsible for the status of PS steelhead. If anything like that were remotely the case, I’d certainly expect you to be singing the praises to Curt’s insightful management of PS pink and chum salmon, and Snohomish coho, since they are at near historic levels of abundance.

    Another thing, not every scientist conducts experiments and writes articles for peer reviewed journals. You may be aware that most peer reviewed journals exist for the sole purpose of publishing the work of academicians who live in the world of “publish or perish.” The vast majority of scientists are applied scientists who work in a myriad of businesses and industries, including management of natural resources.

    Next, what makes you think that PS steelhead status would be any different if Curt and WDFW had managed differently? It’s a lot easier to take pot shots than to provide substantive answers. WDFW doesn’t allow unsustainable harvest levels on wild PS steelhead, and hasn’t since 1984, that I’m aware of, with some specific conservation efforts dating to 1976. It may be WDFW’s job to preserve and perpetuate fish and wildlife resources, but WDFW is a reflection of the society it serves. That society doesn’t sufficiently value those resources to totally fulfill the legislative mandate. Society demands utilization. So WDFW provides hatcheries to partially fulfill that demand, and protects other resources, like wild PS steelhead, to the extent practicable while still fulfilling what society demands. I don’t know Curt all that well, but I know him and many other fish managers well enough to know that none deserve neither all the blame nor all the credit for what has gone well or ill. Your posts have amounted to flame bait trolling, and you’ve been successful. Nonetheless, maybe a constructive discussion can still ensue.

    Your comments on management models are off the mark. MSY is a flop, most of us will agree. Two points however. First, MSY isn’t used to manage all WA state stocks. Second, MSY is the court-approved management strategies where treaty fisheries are concerned. WDFW can’t do anything about it. Another point, antiquated or not, most models used by WDFW, or other agencies for that matter, are the models that are best supported by available data. The caveat, of course, is that all models are wrong. Some models are better than others. WDFW has no reason to use models that do not serve it, or its constituents’, interests.

    Finally, you can make your points that support the position that the presence of hatchery fish is harmful to wild fish without attacking anyone. Your attitude undermines your credibility.

    In furtherance of the discussion, I usually kill a bright hatchery steelhead. There are exceptions. Like, if it’s not bright. Last winter one day I caught five hatchery kelts and released them all. They would have been poor table fare. What should the response be? They had already spawned, having done their environmental and ecosystem damage, so to speak. On the other hand, in ecosystem terms it might be hard to justify my having been fishing there at all, since I was looking for a bright wild steelhead, which I would have been obligated to release.

    So Gordon, why don’t you tell me how to do it right? And as you should know, when you do what is right only for the wild steelhead, you’ll be ignoring movers and shakers who have conflicting interests and who have the ear of the governor, the legislature, and the WDFW Commission. Ignore them only at your peril, as you’ll be managing nothing if you do.

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     
  9. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    All: Find a way to discuss things here with civility and NO personal attacks!
     
  10. willieboat

    willieboat Member

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    Okay, my two cents. I think that we forget that this is all just fishing. It's not deep mystical stuff. It's fishing. Kill the fish or don't kill the fish. Either way, we don't become better humans because we trick a fellow creature with a pea sized brain, to eat our lures, flies, bait, or we catch them in a net. It's just fishing!
    I love doing it because it takes me to another place. I'm still reminded of when I was a kid and my grandmother would take me to cool places on lakes and rivers.

    Don
     
  11. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

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    Bonking brats is fine by me. I'll bonk any bright brat if the hatchery has isn't having return troubles.. I'll toss back dark fish, spawners, snakes, ...

    Killing hatchery smolt?? Not going to go there. I'd rather give the fish a chance to return and catch it when it's 12lbs, a great fight, and great eating.
     
  12. gordon

    gordon New Member

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    salmo,

    we can agree to disagree. i think i have had my fill on this and i stand by my replies. i do understand my path reduces credibilty in the eyes of some, but i imagine others see where i am coming from too.

    while certainly most scientists do not publish, publication is the only means of furthering credible scientific understanding and those who don't publish often have a difficult time comprehending the literature. that is one reason people who publish are important. i would rather have people who publish making decisions rather than people who don't, thats because i believe they understand the science better than folks who don't go through the rigorous process.

    sure society wants to utilize natural resources, but while society is the wind that sails the flag of democracy, it is up to those hired with knowledge to shape those desires into a sustainable and lasting level of usage. every poll i have observed over the past four years says that most anglers support catch and release of wild steelhead, yet wdfw ignores their supposed "societal responsibility" to these consituents and institutes the age old theory of harvest until it crashes, then close the river. to this day that has not changed with wdfw. for example, the Hoh has not met escapement the past three years, due to tribal and sport fishing overharvest. the same is expected this year, and now wdfw may restrict fishing. the hoh is relatively intact, 65% of the basin is in pristine condition in the Park. habitat is not the problem. the demise of this strong run is due to harvest and the continued support of wdfw allowing harvest. considering the aforementioned knowledge hte past two years that the run was not going to meet escapement, and that mos steelhead anglers support catch and release, while wdfw continues to promote unsustainable levels of harvest, suggests that wdfw is not following the wishes of society but is instead following their own mantra of manage to depletion and inevitable closure.

    the right way to do it salmo is to be plastic and don't rely on simplified models. the right way is for wdfw to spend less of its budget on hatcheries and more of its money on monitoring and improving data collection so preseason run forecasts can improve. the right way to do it is to implement restrictive fishing regulations on all wild steelhead rivers that still support some level of angling so that the level of angling is more sustainable. considering the increasing population of the PNW, the increasing fishing pressure on important places like the OP, the right thing to do is for WDFW to active promote foresight by understanding that harvest should not continue because the level of exploitation is going to continue to increase there fore WDFW should do all in its power to sustain those last remainign runs.

    Sure the Tribes can claim foregone opportunity harvest rights on those fish that the anglers don't harvest, so essentially the harvest levels might remain the same. however, all tribes are willows in the wind to public perception and once runs started to decline due to their extensive overharvest, the tribes would buckle under the disappearing public pereception of the sustainable harvesting native american. the tribes would buckle just as the seattle times reported on their overharvest of stranded salmon in the quileute in 2002 when they quit fishing because of massive public complaints. if the public understands tribes are the ones killing steelhead into depletion, they will pay the price economically and eventually quit harvesting at that unsustainable rate.

    in other words, the right way to do it is to take care of ones own collective management efforts before you blame habitat and ocean conditions, because there are four H's and harvest and hatcheries are two big ones. because, as we all know, salmonids have survived far worse and more dramatic habitat alterations than humans have exposed them too, and they survived just fine and exploited other freshly available- and relatively empty river niches- that were not filled with hatchery fish, but now are, leaving source populations nowhere to occupy. i dont' want to belittle the influence of habitat, it is critical, just put it in perspective to what salmonids have survived before. and finally, i wonder how many people realize that washington state is the biggest hatchery factory in the lower 48 and almost the world. despite the relative health of rivers in washington compared to those in other areas, 70% of all the smolts entering our marine environment are of hatchery origin. no other state comes close to that unbalanced ratio. that many hatchery fish, from adults to juveniles to increased angler pressure, are assuredly affecting our salmon runs, and that is in the hands of wdfw.

    much love brotha
    gordon
     
  13. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    I must agree with Gordon. I doubt I would ever fish with him either.
     
  14. Zen Piscator

    Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

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    iagree

    Gordon, as i said in the pm, you have good stuff to say most of the time, but people will only listen if you present it in a civil mannor. We could all learn alot from you, if you let us. You could also learn equaly from what others have to say. That also goes for anyone else, myself included.
     
  15. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    Whats a doobie?

    Correct me if wrong...remember I put that there.....after a little research you are right since 1997 they (gov't) have spent millions of dollars investigating and studying the probabilties to try to reintroduce the timber wolve back to the OP. They once lived there 1930's. I guess I read a Montana project in conjunction with the Olympic Pennisula Proposals. Enough of this and enough of _ _ _ _ _ _.