Hatchery or wild?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by generic, Sep 29, 2012.

  1. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    FreestoneAngler,

    You've put a lot of words in my mouth and thoughts in my head in that strawman argument. The discussion to this point has been about whether the fish in the photo was hatchery or wild and killing adult hatchery fish encountered while fishing. Since doing so won't result in any less smolts (determined by hatchery management) it doesn't effect any hatchery run or any of the poorly understood variables you cite above. What it does is simply reduce a hatchery fish from spawning in the wild. On this subject the science is pretty darn clear. If you think differently then you've been reading studies that I haven't or have a very different understanding of the same data and discussion. You seem pretty passionate about the subject I'd love to see any study that shows hatchery wild spawning interaction to be good for wild fish.

    Stay on target. Don't put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head. I write pretty darn well, so I know if you read what I write with an open mind you can understand. You don't have to agree and you can argue against any point I make. Best of luck.

    So you understand too, making the statement that I attend the "church of wild fish" is a perjorative. This is an issue of science. To say my position is faith based in any way is speculative and insulting. I take your motives as being just what you say they are, I'd appreciate the same respect.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  2. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    "....finding some compromise a majority can get behind is likely to get more traction than the "stop all hatcheries and kill off all hatchery fish" approach."

    ...or, stick to your dogmatic position, continue to alienate yourselves from the rest of the fishing community who, whether you like it or not, will have a say in the way steelhead fisheries will be managed.

    The reference to the church choir and church of wild steelhead was in response to some prior related threads on this subject where you and a few others went apoplectic about my position on releasing hatchery fish if legal and one chooses to do so. You all reached a crescendo reminiscent of a church choir repeating a doctrine.
     
  3. generic

    generic Active Member

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    Uh... as the original poster of this thread, all I was mentioning was that I could not positively identify this fish. I figured it was a hatchery fish, but did not wish to retain it and take the risk of getting in trouble. Also that I've been seeing more fish clipped like this over the past couple of years - more than over the past 10 yrs or so.

    I keep ALL hatchery fish, and give them away. Didn't think this would start a debate...but then I remember where I was at. :p
     
  4. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Freestone,

    I don't know if you are posting in response to my post there or not. I assume not as the quote you use is assuredly not mine. Then again the second paragragh seems to be in response but it's unclear. Could you clarify? I really dislike having words be attributed to me that aren't mine.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  5. Lex

    Lex Active Member

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    I rarely chime in to these pissing matches, but what the hell are you talking about? All Charles was saying is to remove the hatchery fish from any system when you can. This is a fish ID thread. Instead of hi-jacking a thread and putting words on another's key board, next time start a thread of your own.

    L
     
  6. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    I'll help you. In addition to properly identifying the fish, he also said "kill it every time". I responded "...or let it go if legal and you choose to do so". No hi-jack, just responding to a statement with and opposing statement.
     
  7. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Fixed it for ya!

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  8. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Logic's there for those not blinded by doctrine. If you choose to ignore the fact that a significant population of the fishing community does not share the "wild steelhead only" approach, I suspect you will continue to be disappointed in how the fisheries are managed. I suggested a path... what do you suggest?

    You say name calling, I say comparison.
     
  9. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    I suggest that all adult hatchery fish be killed. There is no downside to this approach. It keeps at least that fish from spawning in the wild. This, as I stated previously has no effect on future generations of hatchery fish. It can and likely does increase the ability of the wild fish to reproduce naturally.

    In certain areas such as the Puget sound we need to really rethink whether we even want hatcheries for steelhead. Given their dismal return on investment, dismal returns (possible exception Skykomish) and potential adverse impacts to wild stocks it is the conservative approach. Coastal Hatchery fish and CR hatchery fish seem to have a sigifigant social benefit so while I think we need to look at those programs too there are at least a few marks on the positive side of the ledger.

    You say comparison but your "church of wild fish" is clearly and insult hurled to dismiss others science based beliefs. It is in a word....projection. Is that clear enough?

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  10. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    could you please post links to this "contradicting data" on the benefits of hatchery steelhead on wild stocks?
     
  11. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    I love it when I can only see one side of an argument. The funny thing is I know who the other side is even when I can't see it. Wonder why that is?
     
  12. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    There we go, now we're having a reasonable discussion. One downside to killing all hatchery fish is that it reduces the number of fish in the system available for catch. I'm sure many of us have enjoyed catching a fish that another angler released...be it marked or unmarked.

    I agree with you about re-thinking steelhead management. As I stated earlier, I'm in favor of selecting several of our rivers as pilot projects, that have the best returning number of wild stock, and stopping hatchery production, stopping tribal netting, and closing the river to fishing for a long enough period of time to see if stocks will rebuild. I think this offers a way of seeing if natural spawning/return can happen while still keeping other fisheries open and not alienating everyone.

    Again, no intent to insult with the comparison. Also, stated earlier, the science associated with fisheries is far less understood than physics such as Newtons Laws...simply too many dynamic variables to account for...most of which are likewise not razor sharp. Hence, in a way, there is perhaps more faith involved than not.
     
  13. Irafly

    Irafly Indi "Ira" Jones

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    I will selfishly admit that I like the idea of releasing hatchery fish so I can keep fishing. I also like the idea of catching a fish that someone else released. I will maybe one day make it to the point where I realize the best way to help this situation is to not fish at all period and ultimately it is the only logical argument that makes any sense.

    As for the fish in the picture, I will state once again, regardless of your believe structure, it was extremely wise to release it. Much better to be safe then sorry.
     
  14. generic

    generic Active Member

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    I agree. One fish isn't worth the possibility of a fine, and confiscation of my fishing stuff until the fine is paid.
     
    Irafly likes this.
  15. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    Not fishing would be the leaast impactful choice.

    I'm selfish--I love nothing in this world more than fishing for steelhead.

    The next best/next-least impactful option is to catch and release wild steelhead--while killing every hatchery fish I encounter.

    It's not all or nothing--Not fishing or release everything. I'll take the option that gives me the best chance of catching wild steelhead in the future. I accept the fact that there's a chance I will kill wild steelhead while fishing for them. I just choose the lesser of the two evils and cull hatchery fish. Yes, I recognize the hypocracy here--but I'm human--that's what we do. Leaving hatchery fish, alive, in the system does unneccesary damage to wild fish (there is little real argument about this--the argument is over how MUCH damage).

    Furthermore, the money that we put into hatcheries v. restoration work in unconscionable.

    Freestone,

    The argument that "you'll alienate people!" falls flat. What's keeping YOU from killing hatchery fish--you should look a little deeper and decide what your real reason in. You clearly aren't leaving hatchery fish alive for the sake of sportsfisheman unity. Also, just beacuse you have " have enjoyed catching a fish that another angler released" doesn't count as a good reason. I'm sure a lot of people enjoy bonking wild steelhead. But that's not a good reason to allow it.

    We engage in a brutal bloodsport. We have a responsibilty to do a little harm as we can while doing so. I fight or steelhead because I love to steelhead fish, I do damage, but I do my best to keep that damage to a minimum.