High Dollar vs. Less Dollar Rods

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Matt Paluch, Aug 9, 2007.

  1. obiwankanobi

    obiwankanobi Active Member

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    I feel that this is a problem that you have to identify for yourself not leave it up to a forum to reinforce your ideas or beliefs. Who really cares, if someone has an opinion that an Eagle Claw fishes as well as a Sage Z Axis, leave that up to them to decide for themselves how much they want to pay for their equipment.

    I own all premium rods and don't for one second think twice if someone feels that my Z-Axis, Zero Gravity, T&T rod is an overpriced rod. I simply don't care!

    I can't see how someone or a few who made comments about you over paying for your equipment, has made you lose conviction in your purchases.

    I love cars and even though right now I can't afford a Porsche 911 or BMW 9 series, when I buy one, I won't care if someone tells me that was a snobbish purchase or that I overpayed for what I own. I drive a Civic now and it is high quality cheap vechicle and will get me from point A to point B, but the high end exotics will give me a different gratification.
     
  2. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Well-Known Member

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    Let's see; you seem to have an unsubstantiated bias against rods made overseas.

    Hmmm, all mandrels are turned overseas. Ask Sage and Loomis where their mandrels come from; it ain't the USA last I heard.

    Overseas rods have access to the same prepreg resin impregnated graphite fabrics as domestic rodmakers, and in many cases are using the same advanced grade fabrics.

    Curing ovens, now there's a technological breakthrough, having seen rod blanks cured in a plywood box heated with light bulbs in Jimmy Green's basement. Some aspects of the production process just aren't rocket science, even tho Orvis ads would have us believe so. I think curing ovens in the far east are every bit as sophisticated as those at Sage, etc.

    Sanding and lacquering blanks is probably too difficult to train foreign workers to do, altho they seem to be able to make $150 running shoes just fine.

    Wrapping guides is done as piece work at US makers, usually by women living in the neighborhood of the factory. Am I to think Chinese workers can't do this as well as American women?

    The only thing the foreign rodmakes don't seem to be doing - yet - is actually designing the rod they export to the US. And I won't be surprised to see that change one of these days either.

    Did you ever pause to think that when a rodmaker wants his product to be associated with prestige, along with making the best rod he can, it's also important to price the product at a level that consumers associate with prestige? One reasons high end rods sell for the prices they do is because they have created an expectation within their target audience that their rods will be expensive. They cannot afford to disappoint folks.
     
  3. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    Does this stuff just roll off your fingertips or are there a bunch of discarded drafts in the waste basket before you hit send?:thumb:
     
  4. Tim Cottage

    Tim Cottage Formerly tbc1415

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    fishntiethebest

    Amongst to various points you are reaching for, I agree with this one the most.

    "Avoid nymphing whenever possible."

    but I'll be darned if I can make sense of this one

    "And yes, if the rod get's broken it is usually in a non fishing situation. The likelyhood of breaking a rod even when it's user error is greater when you have an overseas rod."


    TC
     
  5. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Well-Known Member

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    PT,

    I've got more trivia stuck in my brain than I know what to do with. The forum is a handy outlet for a small fraction of it.

    Believe it or not, I don't harbor any grudge against high end rods, reels (even with unnecessary disc drags), and so forth. I just wish people could get off their high horse and admit that the most valid reason for fishing with expensive gear is because we can, and admit that high end companies do us the favor of charging enough for their gear so that we've got irrational bragging rights during conversations at cocktail parties.

    Sg
     
  6. Randy Knapp

    Randy Knapp Active Member

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    Fish glass and save your cash. You don't have to worry about nicks in an old Fenwick. Can't see where an all aluminum reel seat or cork with a few pores or inexpensive but corrosion resistent guides has any effect on performance...likewise for thread and epoxy. You fish expensive rods because you like them, or they look prettier, or you like the prestige, or you get a good discount on them, or any other of a number of non-performance related reasons. A good rod can be had for less than $200 for sure. Most of our industry is composed of products that sold on the basis of hyped up marketing for profit reasons. Let's face it, a shop makes a whole lot more selling a $600 rod than it does a $100 rod. All of mine cost me less than $100 each. Likewise, I haven't come across a single local fishing situation where a Pflueger Medalist doesn't perform as well or better than a premium reel (and they used them for most bluewater saltwater applications for years). The same goes for most fly lines. My Scientific Anglers Air Cel lines perform just fine as do my Maxima leaders and tippets. I've even gone back to my old favorite non-breathable but practically bullet proof OS Systems waders and Borger Weinbrenner wading boots to supplement my summer LL Bean aquastealths. And it just isn't the money. I have owned and sold or traded premium rods made by Orvis, Sage, Winston, G Loomis, and Powell and premium reels by the original Lamson, Ross, Hardy (including Perfects and St George), and Orvis. The same goes for other premium gear (like Simms Guide waders)and a host of intermediate stuff through the years. I understand the marketing and why fly shops and companies sell the high end stuff and, I'm glad it is available. I promise not to look down at you (or up) for owning it, but don't even pretend to think the high cost is related to performance.

    Randy
     
  7. Matt Paluch

    Matt Paluch Active Member

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    I give up...

    Time to talk about what fly caught that beautiful fish or where to camp on the yak... maybe even the true location of Rattlesnake creek. But no more which rod is better conversation for this guy here. Maybe someday I'll meet a few of you on the water and we can cast each other's gear and say "wow, you have some fun stuff to fish with." I'll scamper back to my hole filled with overpriced... way over used gear.
     
  8. Tracker

    Tracker Active Member

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    Rode a Honda for three years and it was never in the shop. My Harley spends a significant amount of time in the shop. Honda ride was smooth and quiet. Not so with the Harley. Harley cost thousands more.

    OK...I've gone to far....I digress.
     
  9. Sloan Craven

    Sloan Craven Active Member

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    With all due respect to everyone.... THis is really sort of a funny argument. ...... I do believe that , on average, higher priced rods are generally better than lower priced rods. But to automatically assume "you get what you pay for"? Hilarious!!!!!!! Remember when Loomis came out with their GLX spey rods? They have a 900+ dollar price tag, and some of the worst finish work ever. Crooked guides, removable tip-tops.... I'm sure they've remedied the problem over the last year. But anyone that put the cash down for those rods didn't get what they paid for.

    THis is especially a difficult thesis when discussing spey rods. Are you going to seriously tell me that the $980 Loomis or a $1200 Hardy is twice as good as Bob Meiser's Highlander? Or three times better than the Deer Creek rods? Sure it may have a more expensive reel seat, nicer cork, or shinier thread. But it's doubtful they will function as well. I honestly can't think of a single spey caster that knows whats out there and , given unlimited funds, would choose the Loomis or Hardy. If they were the same price, I would take the Deer Creek over the Loomis, as asked in the original post.

    Branding factors into the price tag, too. Does anyone really not think that the name bumps the price up 10, 20, or 30 % when you buy a Sage, T&T, Winston, Hardy, Orvis? I own stuff with those names on it, but I truly believe it is overpriced for what you are getting. I mean, how much of my money is going into the glossy, slick advertisements in every fishing magazine in the world?

    The market for fly rods probably functions like any other market. If you say your item is the newest/best with have a cool color gloss, and a slick name, someones gonna buy it. It really doesn't have to be that good.
    There's a sucker born every minute, and a few of them flyfish.

    Finally, what are you paying for if you "get what you pay for in a fly rod"? I mean if you do want the most expensive components and a name, then don't give a second thought to your purchases. But, when you start to discuss performance, a big price tag doesn't guarantee anything.

    I too hate certain bohemian attitudes and when people try to downplay the quality of anything that isn't the cheapest thing on the market. But to take on the opposite of the bohemian attitude, and declare that the most expensive item must be the best, is just as silly.
     
  10. Pieter Salverda

    Pieter Salverda Member

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    Holy Crap! Is this really what we are going to discuss on this forum. This is like asking who was the best running back or quarterback of all time. This is a question to which there are OPINIONS, not answers. I am still fishing with the $99 combo I got at Outdoor Emporium 10 years ago. It is not pretty, but I can still cast plenty far, and I catch plenty fish. If you want to spend $100 bucks, then do so. If you can afford $1000, Great. The point is...GO FISHING!!! Who the hell cares what you are using. Are some "better" than others? Sure. But the best rod in the world doesn't catch much fish if you are not fishing and just spending your time making useless arguments.

    Love and Peace!

    Pieter
     
  11. Kevin Giusti

    Kevin Giusti New Member

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    Well I was the first to get on you on the other thread. Im not going to waste my time going on and on. But I have two points to say. I think your 10 to 1 ratio is a crock. And Im all for you having your own opinion about rods and such but what really got me mad about your other thread was you mentioning names of two well known rod makers that put out a GREAT PRODUCT and stand behind there products 110 percent. You could of made your point just as well without putting the names of these rod manufacturers in your post. And I would be glad to fish with you anytime but sorry dude, HANDS OFF MY STICKS! Seems you have a problem with breaking rods. Kevin
     
  12. Chris Puma

    Chris Puma hates waking up early

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    i still find it hilarious that someone who has a 10 to 1 breaking fly rod ratio thinks that spending more money is the solution to his problem. :rofl: now that's some yuppy sh*t. throw money at something and the problem magically goes away.
     
  13. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Well-Known Member

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    Good catch Chris. Maybe he's like the government and "solves" problems by throwing more money at them.
     
  14. Pieter Salverda

    Pieter Salverda Member

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    Ditto.

    Chris, Right on!
     
  15. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

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    Randy, so is the same true of a Ford Taurus and the Lexus? Just crafty marketing?

    Let's face it, and I'm not just talking rods here; you usually get what you pay for....