Hoh

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by theonethatgotaway, Jan 11, 2012.

  1. cabezon

    cabezon Sculpin Enterprises

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    While the concept of "foregone opportunity" may not have been explicitly tested in court, you are going to have a major problem in making that argument in a court of law. Even if this concept appears today to allow a tribe with treaty rights to take more than their 50% of the catch above escapement, it was originally applied by the non-tribal fishers against the tribes. After the Boldt decision, the state argued that the tribal fishers lacked the infrastructure to harvest their share and that therefore the non-tribal fishers should harvest any portion of the tribal escapement that the tribal fishers could not harvest. Sadly, the tribes have improved their infrastructure and effort and the above escapement surplus has dwindled so radically.

    So you (or your lawyer) would have to convince a judge that when the non-tribal fishers invoked foregone opportunity is was O.K., but it is not O.K. for tribal fishers to apply the same concept now.

    If you want to try to influence tribal harvest - offer the fishers money, probably lots of money!!! Will tribes be willing to sell a portion of their quota, with this portion going to stock enhancement? It is unlikely that they will totally stop fishing - it is part of their cultural identity. But beyond the ceremonial aspect, fishing is a job that brings in money to buy things. The Canadians bought out all the commercial salmon licenses in the Atlantic provinces so that Atlantic salmon could be a plaything for us. Could that be replicated here?

    Steve
     
  2. sleestak240

    sleestak240 Active Member

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    That's an interesting study you linked to, thank you. I'm a bit surprised at how low they say C&R mortality for winter steelhead actually is in the study.

    Alright, so a boat angling ban is a quality of experience issue...I still think it needs to be considered in a serious manner for the destination fishery that the OP is becoming.
     
  3. Brazda

    Brazda Fly Fishing guide "The Bogy House" Lodge

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    As you can see sport fishermen don't even see the same light with each other there totally FRACTURED in there thinking of what will be best for steelhead,,,in reality there all 90% correct but still argue over it....must be for fun I guess.

    How do you think the tribe see's us there never in our boat or on our beaches( metaphorically) and left to total assumption, That is one reason they distrust C&R, they also think mortality rates are up around 30% on C&R it makes there catch rate seen justifiable at well over 50%...

    It boils down to even one extra day a week that they can leave a gill net in a river COULD outfish any mortality or legal wild fish kill for a month by sportsmen..

    Forgone oppertunity has the possability to give them that day a week extra....
     
  4. Evan Burck

    Evan Burck Fudge Dragon

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    and an extra day or 5 by calling it "ceremonial."
     
  5. Chris Johnson

    Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

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  6. gldntrt40

    gldntrt40 Active Member

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    The OP rivers will be closed for fishing within 10-15 years is an easy prediction to make.
    Loss of spawning habitat because of logging practice is a huge loss for all the rivers where the watersheds and below suffer. For the luckier rivers of the park that aren't logged, too many mouths to take a bite out of the runs.. sad.
    Websites like this are a big part of the problem, ofcourse. The old days of not even having a clue if a river was in shape kept alot of people home.
    Now, everyone talks about their catches...techniques..spots etc.. Just IMHO, take pics and remember today as the "good old days" of crowded rivers because we will all soon be all sitting home and playing hi-tech 3d virtual steelhead computer games...
     
  7. Brazda

    Brazda Fly Fishing guide "The Bogy House" Lodge

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    Standing on the green river in 1991 I made the same prediction about the Green river in Auburn, where I had been heavily envolved with fishing clubs and WDFW volunteer projects. A few seasons later I quite fishing the Green when a single tribal member decided to challenge the no fishing from a floating device rule and just started fishing when and where ever, in season or not. The next year the ruling was lifted and I left the Green forever...That river took nearly twenty years to reach the state it is in now...
    The rivers on the north coast of the Olympic Peninsula in 2012 are no were close to the the troubles of the Green and Puyallup where in 1991. Aside from sport fishing pressure. This year we will see the largest increase of that since the 70's but in now way as busy as the Bogachiel in 1980-1990..
     
  8. gt

    gt Active Member

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    on second thought, writing fiction on your CRC won't do a bit of good as WDFW has not used 'our' data for about 12 years now. i do know they use highly suspect statistical procedures which always come out with cheerie overblown forecasts, sort of like patting the commercials and indians on the head to avoid conflict.
     
  9. Jonathan Tachell

    Jonathan Tachell Active Member

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    It was always my assumption that the WDFW tallied up the fish counts from our catch record cards and the tribes are supposed to get an equal amount of fish. So it would seem logical to me that not marking fish on your punch card would make more sense. But then the whole forgone oppertunity thing ruins that logic if they get extra fish that were not recorded on catch record cards.
     
  10. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    I like the idea of banning fishing from boats. The late (and great) Skagit season required fishermen to not fish while the boat was under power. What made that decision happen?
    The following is from the WDFW site. The word sustainable really sticks out to me.



    http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/mission_goals.html

    Mission and Goals

    Our Mission

    To preserve, protect and perpetuate fish, wildlife and ecosystems while providing sustainable fish and wildlife recreational and commercial opportunities.

    Vision

    Conservation of Washington’s fish and wildlife resources and ecosystems.

    WDFW defines “Conservation” as:

    Protection, preservation, management, or restoration of natural environments and the ecological communities that inhabit them; including management of human use for public benefit and sustainable social and economic needs.
    (Adapted from The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005)

    Department Goals

    To achieve its mission, WDFW will continue to focus its activities on the following four goals:

    Conserve and protect native fish and wildlife

    Provide sustainable fishing, hunting and other wildlife-related recreational experiences.

    Use sound business practices, deliver high-quality customer service.

    Maintain a highly skilled and motivated workforce.
     
  11. gt

    gt Active Member

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    not so grasshopper, they collect them, stick them in a shoe box, end of tune.
     
  12. Jonathan Tachell

    Jonathan Tachell Active Member

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    Not really a surprise I guess gt. I guess with the state it boils down to money ( writing tickets for failing to fill out catch record cards or return it at the end of the season and charge for additional catch record cards once the first one is filled out ) and convenient data that suits their purposes best.
     
  13. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    Ummmmmmm..... What part of this has WDFW achieved?

    Sustainable fishery on the Skagit? Isn't it closing in the next few days due to not having a sustainable fishery? Or, am I just missing something here?
     
  14. Brazda

    Brazda Fly Fishing guide "The Bogy House" Lodge

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    If WDFW was you investment broker wouldn't you have FIRED them long ago.
     
  15. sleestak240

    sleestak240 Active Member

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    Haha, dead on. If only people were getting $10,000,000/yr bonuses based on the rate of wild steelhead return improvement. We'd be fighting them off with cattle prods. They'd be classified as pests.