NFR How to prevent firearm based murder/s

Status
Not open for further replies.
#18
Another under laying cause may be attributed to the "bullying" that goes on in schools and which is not addressed. One main theme seems to be these indivduals are "fringe" personalities that are disdained by others in their same age group.
Interesting observation. My Daughter was punched and bit by a little boy in her class. I asked my son, who is 2 years older if he saw what happened. He said yes, I saw it. I asked him what he did after he saw it. He said, "I told the teacher what happened, we get in trouble if we fight back".

That's the problem. There used to be a right of passage for every boy where eventually they had to stand up to a bully to either protect themselvs or their loved ones. This taught young men (and women in some cases) that if you are a bully, eventually someone is going to smash your goddamn face in. It taught kids who were picked on that you can stand up for yourself. These result in two qualities I see that are lacking in this latest generation, and probably the last 2 generations if you're on the west coast. Humility and Confidence.

I still blame the vaginzation of americans that I'm convinced is caused by both nurture and nature. Nurture being the shitheads that are teaching our kids skills that are only usefull if you live in a rated g fantasy land, and nature being all of the estrogen and hormones being pumped into our bodies through pollution.
 
#19
Bob, I agree with most of what you wrote, and I think we need to address issues in society ranging from mental health to morality to strengthening families to eliminate root causes.

But it's not true that gun control laws do not work. They have worked in other countries like Australia, Japan and the UK in recent decades.

in Australia, banning and buying back assault weapons has so far totally stopped massacres: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/files/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf

The UK also relatively recently made gun ownership harder to achieve, with a focus on an intensive licensing requirement, and that too has worked to reduce gun deaths and nearly eliminate big massacres: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10220974

Japan has almost totally banned firearms. This extreme of a law is not something I or most in the US would advocate, but it does illustrate effectiveness of such a law: http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

In our own country, there is some evidence that states with stricter laws have fewer gun deaths: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/

The question is whether such laws could work in the US overall. Maybe we are significantly crazier than the aforementioned nations, and/or have so many more guns in circulation (especially high-capacity assault weapons) that a ban won't work. I for one will be looking at this issue in coming months and years with an open mind and eager desire to implement the best solutions without regard for dogma or ideology.

We do have a 2nd amendment that gives us the right to bear arms, but the full text of that amendment also states that this right must be well-regulated and organized ("a well-regulated militia"): "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." So if you are a strict Constitutional advocate, you must also support a reasonable and effective effort to regulate guns while maintaining our right to bear them.
Re: Autrailia comment ref to http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/files/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf
I, for one don't believe anything coming from such a liberal institution as Harvard.
As for your claim that Austrailia, Japan & the UK's restrictive gun laws have nearly eliminated mass murders, I submit they still occur now & then in these countries. They are just carried out by means other than the gun.

Japan has almost totally banned firearms. Yes, and gun ownership in the state of Hawaii is very difficult, if not impossible. HOWEVER, there are shooting ranges in Hawaii where one can shoot full auto weapons (owned by the range). Guess who their largest clientele is? The Japanese!

Re: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Contrary to the liberal spin, in the terms of the founders "militia" referred not to the national guard, but to the whole of the people, and "well regulated" did not mean regulated by either state or federal authority,, but well armed. Stop and think about that. Being necessary to the security of a free state. Secure from what? An overpowering government, such as they had just fought being the founders greatest fear, the intent was to insure against the future possibility of a tyrannical government gaining absolute control of the people in the future. So how could that work if, well regulated meant controlled by either the state or the federal government?

Now, just to be clear, I have been a life member of the NRA since sometime back in the 80's. Prior to that, I had been reluctant to buy into the notion that there was a concentrated effort to ban all private ownership of firearms in the US. While I will be the first to admit that a 30 round magazine is totally unnecessary for hunting, that is not what the second amendment is about.

Reasonable and effective effort to regulate guns while maintaining our right to bear them? That is an oxymoron if I ever saw one. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
 
#20
It's pretty easy to tell everyone what should or should not be done in schools. It's also easy to call every incident bullying. The lines are narrow but to have to investigate such incidents in schools is actually rather difficult because you rarely get the same story from all involved and when you do and you call and notify the parents, you come under a ration of crap like you would not believe. I have never shied away from talking to a parent about bullying of ratial slurs and such but you wouldn't believe the names I've been called or the accusations that have been made as a result. Unfortunately, parents have a different view of their children than their teachers do. I've pretty much seen it all and the bottom line is that we all need to set good examples for kids so that they grow up with tolerance and empathy, that they grow up productive, and they become the type citizens we expect will lead this country in the future. But...the responsibility lies with all of us.
 

Kcahill

Active Member
#21
Things I would do to save people from themselves and others(and i carry everyday):

1. Require a mental health check for any CPL in any state(it is truly unbelievable that not all states have this).
2. Require a CPL and proof of ownership of a gun safe in the purchase of any semi auto firearm.
3. Ban all cheeseburgers over 500 calories and limit to 1 per 6 hours.
4. Ban all cars capable of over 70mph.
5. Require any person more than 10 lbs overweight to exercise daily.
6. Not allow the news and talking heads to sensationalize any shootings that do occur.
 

ak_powder_monkey

Proud to Be Alaskan
#22
While I will be the first to admit that a 30 round magazine is totally unnecessary for hunting, that is not what the second amendment is about.
Either the second amendment allows for the regulation of arms or not, if the 2nd amendment is about people being able to revolt against the government. If it allows for the regulation of arms then everything should be on the table, if it doesn't everything should be legal, including tanks, nuclear weapons and machine guns.

Its to damn easy to weapons capable of killing lots and lots of people. Its easier than buying a discover pass.
 
#23
...the responsibility lies with all of us.
Especially the parents. Two required! This current line of thought that single parenthood is a noble effort is BS! A kid needs two parents. Mother & Father. Best if one is there to get them up in the morning, see they have a good breakfast, and see them off to school, as well as be there for them when they get home from school! Difficult to achieve in this day & age.
 
#24
If the NRA has you duped into thinking you and your friends should have AR-15s to protect yourself from the tyranny of the feds, then you're as crazy as David Koresh and your "militia" will be as successful as he was when the feds came to Waco. Carry a six gun on your hip and keep one under the mattress, but anything beyond that is for massacre or war. Slippery slope my ass.
 
#25
Either the second amendment allows for the regulation of arms or not, if the 2nd amendment is about people being able to revolt against the government. If it allows for the regulation of arms then everything should be on the table, if it doesn't everything should be legal, including tanks, nuclear weapons and machine guns.

Its to damn easy to weapons capable of killing lots and lots of people. Its easier than buying a discover pass.
Contrary to popular belief, you can legally own a full auto machine gun. It's just so expensive, not only to buy, but for the permits. Plus it's a pain in the ass to jump through all the hoops. And part of that is you have to allow the BATFE to inspect your house any time they damn well please. Keep and bear tanks? Yeah right, in your garage, and tear up the streets driving them around town. Go down to Sportsman's Warehouse & buy 105mm cannon ammo. Naw,,,that's a bit much. Even for me. Hell, if you want to kill a lot of people, Timothy McVeah proved you could do it with common over the counter stuff.

You may make the schools impenetrable, but how do you protect kids playing on the playground? Has anyone given serious thought to playground design? Nooooo. That would be too easy.
 
#26
Either the second amendment allows for the regulation of arms or not, if the 2nd amendment is about people being able to revolt against the government. If it allows for the regulation of arms then everything should be on the table, if it doesn't everything should be legal, including tanks, nuclear weapons and machine guns.

Its to damn easy to weapons capable of killing lots and lots of people. Its easier than buying a discover pass.
Actually nuclear weapons fall under other laws that make them illegal. It's actually quite interesting. The government limits the efficency percentage of any energy source built by the private sector. Splitting atoms is a very efficient way of generating energy so it is not legal to posess that technology. That is why "Atomic Bombs" are not on the list of types of weapons one can or can't own or produce.

You can however own a tank, or fighter jet, or bomber, or submarine ect....ect... I actually know a guy who legally owns a couple tanks. To the best of my knowledge, he's never shot his mother in the face and executed kindergardners.
 

Brian Miller

Be vewy vewy qwiet, I'm hunting Cutthwoat Twout
#27
There have been some excellent points expressed in a terribly complex, many-faceted problem.
...There needs to be a serious commitment to social change in our society. We need to shift toward early childhood care and intervention, especially as to mental health wellness and illness. We need to take much better care of our own. Not just stuff troubled kids with drugs and send them to a brief program, but real mentorship and nurturing concern. Enough of these incidents have occurred that there is a general range of characteristics that are recognized in these attackers. We need to pay more attention to young people in need and in trouble. And how is it that thousands of young inner city juveniles are killing each other in America, every year, and we are not hearing this cry for change? If nice middle class white kids were shooting each other in the clean streets of suburbia on a regular basis you can bet there would be a huge effort launched to save the children. But somehow these minority kids are allowed to destroy each other and no serious effort is being made to intervene. And when the money crunch hits who gets the cuts of funds and services first? The poor, the mentally ill, the needy. Our problems rest in the terrible disparities and indifference that our society has ensconced itself in, in the mad dash for money and materialism. We need to take on the task of finding our own humanity and compassion. We need to slow down and begin to take better care of our own. Gun Control laws do not work. They are a band aid on a problem that lies in our social fabric. Law abiding citizens are restricted and hampered by these laws, and criminals ignore them. And decent people should be free to defend themselves. Our problems rest in the terrible disparities and indifference that our society has ensconced it's self in, in the mad dash for money and materialism. We need to take on the task of finding our own humanity and compassion. We need to slow down and begin to take better care of our own. Gun Control laws do not work. They are a band aid on a problem that lies in our social fabric. Law abiding citizens are restricted and hampered by these laws, and criminals ignore them. And decent people should be free to defend themselves.
...I own lots of guns . . . some are AR platforms, an AK, an M-1, an M-1 Carbine, several 1911s, and a variety of semi-auto “other” arms, including what the media would describe as “high-powered, scoped ‘sniper’ rifles.” They all live in secure vaults... I’m sure some political-agenda, anti-gun legislation will follow in the wake of this disaster, but I also hope that our “leaders” will finally focus on the real issues of mental health, school security, liberal judges, the glorification of violence in movies, on TV, in song lyrics, drugs, gangs, continuous promotion of tragic event newscasts for the sake of ratings, and the general moral & ethical decay prevalent in America. Not to mention the greater focus on “stars” and less on real role models. It’s interesting that the first newscasts focused on exactly which guns were used, but of course we ARE in the age of liberal media with an agenda. Old guys . . . ask yourselves what has changed since we were kids in the ’50s & ‘60s . . . there were M-1s, M-1 Carbines, 1911s, Hi-Powers, Lugers, Brownings, Walthers, riot guns, and other “military” arms. The answer would be societal changes. There wasn’t a viral outbreak of mass shootings. I’ve yet to see one of these mass shootings precipitated by someone my age.
They expressed thoughts about mental illness, an outstanding illustration of a change in American society and culture that Jim mentioned yesterday in the original tragedy thread, and the appropriateness and effectiveness of gun control as a solution.

I lived with mental illness in the family. The effects will be with me until the day I die. It's too painful for me to watch a movie like One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. I sat on a jury that involuntarily committed a young man who needed to be off the streets to prevent harm to himself and others. When I went home that night, I called my Mom and bawled my eyes out. Mental illness seems to be the unloved bastard stepchild of the medical community. There are widely known and embraced efforts to fund research to eradicate asthma, cancers, diabetes, heart disease, multiple sclerosis... But mental illness truly gets the short shrift.

Back in the day I hunted upland game but the passion was lost when my beloved partner could no longer range for birds. Pehaps one day when I have more time the passion will return. I'm a CWP holder and I've participated ("competed" while technically correct would be a stretch) with my M1911 in IPSC matches but couldn't afford to keep up with the big dawgs who put thousands of rounds down range per month. I don't want the government to take away guns from law-abiding citizens.

I was a Mountain Rescue team member for 15 years. I couldn't heal a patient's injuries. All I could do was try to deal with immediate life-threatening conditions (ABCs) and prepare them for transport to a trauma center where physicians had the resources and skills to heal them. In essence I provided a bandaid.

Does America have a life threatening injury? Would additional controls on firearms; mandated background checks on assault weapons, training, buy-backs... help stabilize the patient until they can be healed? Talk to me, I'm listening.
... My Daughter was punched and bit by a little boy in her class. I asked my son, who is 2 years older if he saw what happened. He said yes, I saw it. I asked him what he did after he saw it. He said, "I told the teacher what happened, we get in trouble if we fight back". That's the problem. There used to be a right of passage for every boy where eventually they had to stand up to a bully to either protect themselves or their loved ones. This taught young men (and women in some cases) that if you are a bully, eventually someone is going to smash your goddamn face in. It taught kids who were picked on that you can stand up for yourself. These result in two qualities I see that are lacking in this latest generation, and probably the last 2 generations if you're on the west coast. Humility and Confidence. I still blame the vaginzation of Americans that I'm convinced is caused by both nurture and nature. Nurture being the shitheads that are teaching our kids skills that are only useful if you live in a rated g fantasy land, and nature being all of the estrogen and hormones being pumped into our bodies through pollution...
I wonder how many of these troubled kids were isolated, ridiculed, and bullied in school and their neighborhoods? I have a (now acutely painful) genetic hip problem (surgery next month) and couldn't walk without braces until I was 4 and was slow to attain normal physical coordination. It made me different from other kids and probably affected my self-image, but I lived with it. I was bullied until one day I had had enough, struck back, and the bullying stopped. Is allowing and encouraging physical resistance the solution? Or have changes in American society Jim illustrated so eloquently made the treatment potentially worse than the disease itself?

Unfortunately I sadly recall a couple of other instances where I was a part of the crowd being entertained by someone else being bullied. Today, besides prayers offered up for healing in America, the church that I attend created and funds a nationally recognized anti-bullying program that has been adopted by local school districts to motivate students to change the way children view themselves and to become an encouragement to others. It's too early to say how far this type of program will go towards healing a sickend society, but at least it's doing something.
 
#28
Hell, if you want to kill a lot of people, Timothy McVeah proved you could do it with common over the counter stuff.
If you have enough focus and determination, you will always be able to come up with ways to kill people, but the nature of many mental illnesses thrive on sporadic, impulsive behavior. So the result is you see more mass killings with easy to access assault weapons than you do fertilizer bombs.
 

wadin' boot

Donny, you're out of your element...
#29
One other idea that hasn't been brought up, that might actually be useful...

We probably all agree that child sexual molestation is abhorrent and child porn is on some version of that continuum. Law enforcement has been particularly pro-active in looking into those that are so inclined through internet surveillance. If online games and streaming data and texts are fuel for abhorrent and destructive behaviors, survey them remotely. As Jim Ficklin pointed out in another posting on the earlier thread, this isn't something done by 65 year olds...we're talking folks aged 15-45, men and boys, with passions for assault rifles and firearms...

Build some feature detectors:

if he's playing online games are they first person shooters?
Is he playing alone without friends on the team?
Does he sabotage his teammates?
Are there frequent searches for weapons and weapons systems?

(so far that's a vast cohort of boys aged 12-15)

Are facebook or other postings frankly antisocial and hostile?
Is firearm ownership registered to the home address?
Is there a history of truancy or school suspensions?


etc etc

The beauty of the surveillance is that it could presumably also be retroactive. Who are these guys really? Are they guys that love and collect guns and who are responsible citizens. Or are they guys who see guns as a means to an end?

I get the notion of online surveillance for most of us is repulsive, that it infringes on our freedoms etc, on the other hand, companies already know what I like to look up, who my friends are, and that data, my data, has been sold for their profit. Probably on some pro and con databases just for posting ideas on these debates...
 
#30
I wonder how many of these troubled kids were isolated, ridiculed, and bullied in school and their neighborhoods? I had a genetic hip problem and couldn't walk without braces until I was 4 and was slow to attain normal physical coordination. It made me different from other kids and probably affected my self-image, but I lived with it. I was bullied until one day I had had enough, struck back, and the bullying stopped. Is allowing and encouraging physical resistance the solution? Or have changes in American society Jim illustrated so eloquently made the treatment potentially worse than the disease itself?
I do not think encouraging physical resistance is the solution at all. I think discouraging it does more damage than good. Some kids will be bullies, some kids will be bullied, and most will be on both sides of the coin at some point in their lives. Untill recently, most children were able to sort this out themselvs without interferrence. That worked well. You can blow sunshine up a kids ass his entire life and all that will get you is an adult who does not posess the skillset to deal with adversity be it physical or mental. Or as my grandpap used to say....

Never trust a man who's never been in a fist fight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.