NFR How to prevent firearm based murder/s

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dfl, Dec 16, 2012.

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  1. Jeff Sawyer

    Jeff Sawyer Active Member

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    Speaking as someone who served in the military for 21.5 years, no thank you!

    The military lowered their standards for entry around 2000 to meet the need for more recruits, even with that I saw a drastic increase in the number of problem children I had to deal with as a Senior NCO. The military has an important job to do, and they can do it more effectively and efficiently with quality folks, that meet certain entry requirements, and want to serve.

    The military mission is not to teach everyone in the country what their parents should be teaching them.
     
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  2. Chris Johnson

    Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

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    Big difference in loading and firing a flint lock ( which was the standard when the constitution was written), & an AR-15. I have no problem with people owning guns for hunting or self protection, but you can't carry an assault rifle around every day and a shot gun would be more effective in your home. And if you think you are going to protect yourself from the Government with one, your dreaming. Some form of regulation is in order, either on the weapons or capacity.

    The Broader Issues of mental illness, and how our society treats the less fortunate among us, the ever widening gap between rich and poor. Massive military budgets and tax breaks for huge corporation, @ the expense of programs of social uplift. Maybe we should step back and think about the directon we are going.

    Stop and Frisk was mentioned in an earlier post, here are some facts about the policy.

    http://www.nyclu.org/node/1598
     
  3. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Oh yea; let's start by brainwashing all of our children to believe in the dominant mythology of our culture and make sure they never learn to think critically for themselves. That'll be a big help. Dark ages, here we come!
    D
     
  4. Patrick Gould

    Patrick Gould Active Member

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    I took some time to look this up. Although the data seem to differ a bit from source to source it appears to be not true if you look at gun related deaths and homicides. Some major industrialized countries countries have years where there are no gun related deaths or close to it while Switzerland has a relatively high homicide rate on any given year.
     
  5. scottr

    scottr Active Member

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    First off thank you for your service!

    Secondly, since you served I respect your viewpoint and would defer to the experts on the subject. I realize having a professional military is one of the things that makes our armed forces the best in the world. I also agree, as I stated in other posts, that parents are the first line of defense. Know your kids and teach them to value themselves as they value others.

    But I still stand by the notion that serving others and our nation in some way would solidify a base of knowledge, respect, and character that many kids can't get at home due to checked out parents, absent/working parents, single parent families, etc.

    Military, National Guard, Civil Home Defense, Peace Corps, Conservation Corps, etc could be opportunities to serve & learn. Hell have them serve at the VA helping vets with everything from chores at their home to cleaning bed pans. Seeing the results of war on a regular basis would certainly remove any blood & guts fantasy they get from playing super tactical mall ninja at home.
     
  6. scottr

    scottr Active Member

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    Do you have links you can share?
     
  7. Patrick Gould

    Patrick Gould Active Member

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    The Swiss info in that chart contradicts the info source listed in the footnote, which show higher homicide.
     
  8. Patrick Gould

    Patrick Gould Active Member

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    A 15 min session with Google will bring up many sources of data ranging from liberal and conservative US gun lobbies to international news sources, to the census data of various countries. Many are annotated with links to other source materials.
     
  9. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    The main focus on threads on firearm violence have erupted after the mass shootings or attempted mass shootings. The increasing shout to restrict firearms is in response to that violence. So who is doing the violence? Not too much comment is offered for gang shootings unless it takes place in non-gang areas. So, what is the issue?

    Mass shooters are usually young (mid teens to mid 20's), white or Asian, males, that are said to be above average intelligence, they are socially inept or personality disordered and/or have profound mental illness. They also signal their intent for acting out weeks or months in advance. That is where the problem festers.

    Solution? I haven't got any idea, you cannot commit anyone to mental health inpatient hospitals or institution or mandate medications until they demonstrate harm to themselves or others. I do know that these individuals will get firearms, even if the weapons are illegal or they will use other lethal devices to act out (sarin gas I think was used in Tokyo subway attack, fertilizer was used in Oklahoma and is monitored but obtainable if someone is motivated, and gasoline is very available not monitored.). Even many of the "experts" will tell you it is virtually impossible to prevent mass murders if the perp is motivated.

    I've had a few clients that were more than capable of doing mass murders, the only factor or parameter that didn't apply was they were in their 40's in age when I met them. The few I tracked over time ended up in prison for single murders. There are some really, really scary people walking around, I've seen them and known them. You really can't stop them.
     
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  10. Mike T

    Mike T Active Member

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    I understand that a lot of people simply don't like guns, particularly black scary guns like the AR-15 and their gazillion round magazines. But do these rifles really pose an overarching threat to society?

    We would do well to note that in 2011 FBI statistics show that rifles, all rifles whether they be bolt or semi-auto, were used in 323 homicides. In 2007 rifles were used in 453 homicides and each year leading to 2011 the number of homicides by rifle declined.

    In 2011 more homicides were committed with shotguns than were committed with all rifles. This holds true every year back to 2007 but for one. This also was culled from FBI statistics.

    Some have said violent crime is on the upswing. That's not born out by FBI statistics, for the past 4 years violent homicide has dropped.

    Source: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

    The largest magazine I could find for a shotgun was 10 rounds, given that the shotgun in recent years is responsible for more homicides than the AR with it's ubiquitous 30 round magazine, how can one argue that the AR should be banned? Doesn't this indicate that magazine capacity isn't, at least a key, factor in the affect this rifle has on society.

    National Highway Traffic Safety Administration from 2012 shows that everyday 27 people die in America as a result from drunk driving crashes. That means 9,855 die annually.

    Source: http://www.madd.org/statistics/

    Given that drunk drivers kill 30 times the number of Americans than all rifles put together I have to ask, "where is the outrage for these deaths"? Where are the impassioned cries for auto interlock devices, breathalyzers at bars? Why is it the guy, who has no criminal background, who defends his right to own guns called a mouth breathing wing nut, but the guy who has 2 or 3 cocktails before heading home from work is just a part of the American fabric? My point being that we as a society are schizophrenic about the things we fear, "assault weapons" are in a class of firearm that were used in homicides 323 times in 2011, yet we will all attend Christmas parties where we know someone will be overserved and drive through our neighborhoods contributing to the more than 9,000 that will be killed by a drunk driver this year. It makes no sense.

    What I see is a concerted effort to broad brush those who owns a gun as a socially irresponsible threat to society. When really there are many more seemingly innocuous threats to society that are widely accepted as the norm. I believe some people find it very easy to single out guns as a public health menace as they are intimidating, but all the while people die from other causes that are very easily dealt with but ignored as they're socially more acceptable or don't threaten one's world view.

    I'm a proponent for reducing the number of violent crimes, but concentrating on an inanimate object and not the root causes of crime will not produce the desired results, that is unless the desired result is to disarm law abiding gun owners.
     
  11. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    Mike, there IS outrage toward drunk drivers. In 1980 MADD was formed. MADD successfully passed federal legislation and accomplished other actions that have reduced drunk driving. It was (and is) a multi-faceted approach.

    No one now is saying "ban all guns", or to just focus on guns and exclude other causes like mental health issues, violent media, etc. Like drunk driving issue, it's probably got to be solutions on multiple fronts. Hopefully those solutions will be sensible and fact-based, and not politicized toward EITHER extreme.
     
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  12. silvercreek

    silvercreek Active Member

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    5 pages of replies. I haven't read through all of them so perhaps this has already been suggested.

    Has anyone suggested concealed carry?

    Concealed carry passed just about a year ago in Wisconisin. So far, there are no instances of a person carrying a permitted firearm killing or even shooting someone. However, just 2 weeks ago, in my city we had an episode of road rage in which two bullies forced a car off the road and started beating and trying to stab the driver of the car. He had a permit and a handgun. He used it to stop the attack, and called 911. He told 911 that he was holding the perps at gunpoint and that he had a permit.

    He told the operator that he would place the weapon on his car seat when the police arrived. The police arrived and found the weapon on his car seat with the magazine removed, and the cartridge ejected. The victim was released, the perps are in jail.

    So in this case, the law worked as intended.

    There is NO evidence that concealed carry increases crime. However, there is disagreement as to whether it decreases crime.

    "In reporting on Lott's original analysis The Chronicle of Higher Education has said that although his findings are controversial 'Mr. Lott's research has convinced his peers of at least one point: No scholars now claim that legalizing concealed weapons causes a major increase in crime.'[89]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

    It seems to me that concealed carry should be allowed for teachers and administrative staff in schools. I'm not saying we should force teachers to carry weapons; but for those that do have a permit, allow them to take their weapons into school. Even if the armed teacher only delays the perp, that delay can save lives.

    We daily place our children in the care of these individuals. Should they not be allowed to use deadly force when they and their students are threatened with deadly force?

    Is this not a reasonable response? We need to realize the fact that a no gun policy in schools does not provide any "protection" at all for students and staff. However, it does protects the perpetrator. He knows he will be the only person with a gun.
     
  13. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    ...or consider posting a cop at every school. Many high schools have a cop full time. Maybe we should have a cop full time at every elementary and middle school too. It would be expensive, but "freedom isn't free". Seems like protecting kids' right to learn in peace is a freedom worth paying for.

    (repeat from the third thread now going on this topic).
     
  14. Mike T

    Mike T Active Member

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    I realize that no one on WFF is saying "ban all guns" I was seeking to put the legal ownership of an AR-15 and it's use in homicide into some perspective. My point is that if one is sincere about their desire to safeguard human life that demonizing this rifle should be a low priority.

    In 2011 per the FBI blunt objects killed 496 people. Knives and cutting instruments killed 1,694. Total number of homicide by rifle 323.

    Each day 2 children under the age of 14 die from accidental drowning, 730 a year. When will we hear Diane Feinstein introducing a bill to stop this scourge? Likely never...
     
  15. Patrick Gould

    Patrick Gould Active Member

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    There are codes that dictate fences around residential swimming pools, mandantory life jacket laws, and mandantory boater safety laws. All geared towards lowering the accidental drowning rate.

    BTW: Your point about Rifle homicides being relatively low is correct, although the FBI doesn't seem to provide info on how many of those deaths involved Military style rifles. My gut feeling is that most of these style rifles are owned by gun nerds types who take safety very seriously.
     
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