NFR How to prevent firearm based murder/s

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dfl, Dec 16, 2012.

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  1. scottr

    scottr Active Member

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    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

    In Switzerland, annual firearm homicides total

    2010: 40
    2009: 55
    2008: 18
    2007: 35
    2006: 34
    2005: 48
    2004: 57
    2003: 47
    2002: 68
    2001: 47
    2000: 40
    1999: 72
    1998: 66
    Compare
    Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People

    Chart

    In Switzerland, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is

    2010: 0.52
    2009: 0.72
    2008: 0.24
    2007: 0.46
    2006: 0.45
    2005: 0.64
    2004: 0.8
    2003: 0.6
    2002: 0.9
    2001: 0.7
    2000: 0.6
    1999: 1.0
    1998: 0.9
    1994: 0.58

    http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2012.xls


    Switzerland CJ CTS/Eurostat Rate
    Year rate Total
    1998 - 1.1 - 76
    1999 - 1.1 - 89
    2000 - 1 - 69
    2001 - 1.2 - 86
    2002 - 1.2 - 86
    2003 - 1 - 73
    2004 - 1.1 - 79
    2005 - 1 - 75
    2006 - 0.8 - 60
    2007 - 0.7 - 51
    2008 - 0.7 - 54
    2009 - 0.7 - 51
    2010 - 0.7 - 52
     
  2. Patrick Gould

    Patrick Gould Active Member

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  3. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    A week ago I visited the Jason Lee Middle School in Tacoma. This was one of the greatest programs for connecting with young people I have seen. Dale Chihuly is a hero! There should be a program like this in every city. What a cool thing:
    Hilltop Artists 1.jpg
     

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  4. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    Good Post Mike.

    And you and Roper are exactly right, I'd love to see autolock devices and bar breathalyzers along with random breath testing of drivers. Jesus the amount of damage people do when drunk (let alone drunk and driving) is absolutely phenomenal- to themselves and those around them. (Cam Hood, Rich Foley, C Hole- RIP) In 2005 the OECD Members average driving fatalities were 9.5/100,000 and in the US- 14.5/100,000. Only the Greeks did worse than us. So we are behind there as well.

    It would be easy to read through these threads and be insulted as a gun owner, as though the gun owners were somehow responsible. The concern though is are we cool with the status quo? Of folks going to malls, restaurants, schools and movie theaters to shoot people? If not how do we fix it? Similarly are we cool with folks driving drunk?

    (I get it, drinking can be fun, most times it is; recreational shooting similarly, I ain't going to lie, some of my best memories are fueled in part with alcohol and the friends I was with at the time)

    The same moralistic arguments folks have put up could be applied for drinking fatalities....They need religion, they need better parental support and supervision, the liberal media glamorizes drinking culture, they need a sense of accountability and responsibility because of the declining moral fabric of the society. They drink because of drinking video games (Ok maybe not that one)(Anyone tried taking their family to a Seahawks game lately?) But that's probably not the correct response.

    I'd argue the correct response if you define the problem is to look for models where it doesn't happen or doesn't happen as much, and adapt your laws to the ones that possibly might work...

    The only models for how to do those things are from other countries that do it better than us...

    Stay safe, take your buddies car keys if he's trashed...

    Post posting edit:
    I read this depressing article later today. Turns out, in 2009, firearm related deaths in some states, including Alaska and Washington, Utah and Oregon, exceeded driving related deaths.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...outpace_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_at_least.html
     
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  5. Pat Lat

    Pat Lat Mad Flyentist

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    I've been doing a lot of thinking on this subject in the past few days, mostly due to the opinions, stories and research in this forum and I have come to the conclusion that no matter how much I read others opinions, It doesn't really change mine despite the fact that I do see others perspectives in a different light. Mike T, I think your point was eloquently put, even though I still see most weapons as useless in our society, but I do respect your opinion as it stood out to me as a valid.

    One thing that I do know is that our culture seems to be more reactive than proactive. Another thing that stands out to me is that our forum members, whether they have a house full of guns or a shelf full of violent games would never consider committing such an atrocity.

    So I submit to you, whoever you may be to use the one thing that unites all of us here as a way of helping our youth to stay in touch with the world around them. You don't have to be a master caster or a river guide to share your passion with a group of kids that may otherwise be left to their own devices. If your a gun enthusiast put up a flyer at the range, if a teacher start a club at school, if a gamer start a message board online. I know that while my friends were out getting in trouble after school I was going to get feathers at the feed store to tie flies.

    You will never know if you truly prevented someone from becoming a mass murderer, and you may only be rewarded by having the altruistic feeling of mentoring a troubled kid, but to me that is enough. I know I have a couple spare rods that could be better put to use than sitting in a closet. And in just the time I've spent debating such subjects online I could have been thinking about how to engage someone who may not have anyone else to talk to.

    I live in des moines, if anyone has an idea on how to further this idea let me know, I would love nothing more than to volunteer a couple days a month sharing my passion with the next generation
     
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  6. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    I think looking outside our borders at data describing the results of other countries' attempts to solve this issue has to be part of the mix.
     
  7. Jason Rolfe

    Jason Rolfe Wanderer

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    In response to Pat Lat above:

    Totally agree. I have certain viewpoints, and most of those viewpoints will probably stick with me.

    I will say this: my views of guns and gun laws have definitely changed over the years. And I think that that is partly due to the fact that I have read a lot of interesting discussions from thoughtful individuals on this forum who fall on all parts of the political/cultural spectrum. I have a much greater appreciation for guns and why people care so deeply about them. There was a time when I would have simply said, "Get rid of the guns, no one needs them, etc, etc." I feel I know better now, and have a more well-rounded view of guns and gun control issues. And that is thanks to the many people on here who can thoughtfully and compassionately explain their views and ideas, no matter what side they are coming from.

    So to those of you who have contributed thoughtfully, thank you.

    Jason
     
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  8. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    Here is a very thought-provoking article from a former Special Forces guy about why he does not want himself and lots of others to start carrying concealed weapons in public: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-soldier-s-reply-to-connecticut-shooting.html

    Makes me think of Coach Duff's admonishments several years ago to all of us on WFF every time there was a "which handgun to defend myself against tweakers and bears" thread. He said he was a special forces or similar veteran, and that in the chaos of a firefight, even guys with the best training screw things up big time, so expecting a civilian to shoot well that one time he/she is confronted with a crisis is a non-starter. I don't know how true that was (Coach was always a firebrand, after all), but reading this article reminded me of him. What ever happened to that guy, by the way? Banned? Or self-deported, so to speak?
     
  9. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Good post, Pat. Nice to bring it back to what we all share.

    I am comfortable with the role of being the guy in my 7-yr old surrogate grandson's life who will stand between him and the computer game console and make sure he gains an appreciation of the natural world through experiencing it first hand. I know his working, single mom doesn't have the time or capacity to do that, and I certainly don't hold it against her; she's doing everything she can for him (including investing much of her meager earnings in a GET account for the college education she never had a chance to obtain). I worry for all the other kids of parents who are working so hard just to get by and put food on their table, and who are too often have the computer monitor or TV as baby sitter.

    Let's make sure we're all doing our part one step at a time.

    D
     
  10. Taxon

    Taxon Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Lugan-

    Coach Duff now has a bonefishing guide service on the island of Oahu, and if I recall correctly, he made a post (abut something or other) on this site earlier this year.
     
  11. lylelovett666

    lylelovett666 Active Member

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  12. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    Lyle there's better stuff on the National Review than Sowell's status quo justification:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...-obama-reduce-violence-mentally-ill-d-j-jaffe

    There's something constructive. Seems like a call for federally funded health care for the mentally ill, from the National Review of all places! And at least there's a call to get rid of stupid HIPAA laws, probably one of the most ludicrous wastes of administrative time, money and effort.
     
  13. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald Dr. of Doomology

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    I'm skipping over all the posts simply to air my personal view on this issue. I have my own personal reasons for refusing to be defenseless, but let's leave that aside. It's an observation that where you CAN carry, you really don't need to, and where you can't-Washington DC, Detroit, Chicago, Sacramento, San Francisco for example, you need to.

    As many of you have mentioned, the problem is these loner/losers, not guns. I loved a photo of a woman holding up a protest sign that said "Stop the NRA". Stop it from doing WHAT?? The NRA hasn't gone round shooting anyone. NO, it wouldn't be "pc" to hold a sign that says "Stop the Loonies", would it? And most of it's driven by HIPPA!

    Boot, you NAILED IT! HIPPA's bullshit.
     
  14. Pat Lat

    Pat Lat Mad Flyentist

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    "In 1954, there were only a dozen armed robberies in London but, by the 1990s — after decades of ever tightening gun-ownership restrictions — there were more than a hundred times as many armed robberies."

    I just wanted to pointout the fact that we need to look at lurking variables behind such statistics as this, taken from the article posted above. The rise in armed robberies that the author just attributed to tightening gun-ownership, whilst leaving out the well known fact that the general population has grown considerably. He did not mention the rate per capita, just that there are more armed robberies.
    People will leave out all kinds of facts if it assists them in making a point.
     
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  15. wa_desert_rat

    wa_desert_rat Active Member

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    The NRA has published a brief statement on its web page (www.nra.org) which says, in part:

    "The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again."

    I don't, personally, believe that there is anything we can do to completely halt these. But the press conference on Friday should be interesting. I'm happy to see that more attention to mental health issues is part of the focus. But I have say that when guns are used, guns become part of the issue. No matter which side of the debate you're on there is no escaping that.

    Craig
     
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