in search of a perfect loop

Salmo g,

Yes, thank you,,,,,that is what the basic teachings of Lefty Kreh describe.

The line goes in the direction the rod tip is traveling at the end of the speed-up-and-stop.

This is how the "Stab cast" is possible and how a short stroke high stop is possible without straight line path of rod tip.

Forget the du/dt calculus, just observe the rod and line when casting.

Regards,
FK
 

yuhina

Tropical member
just finished the Tellis casting analysis see below frame by frame... yellow line is overhang, noticed the rod tip position change and the tighten up loop after shoot out... any thought are welcome..













Video 0:55 sec
 
Look at his hands......the dip in the rod is simple rod deflection if you look at the end of the line where it joins the running line you see where the rod stop occured and thus the release of the stored energy from the rod, well above where the rod tip ends up, pretty much in line with his top hand.
 

John Hicks

Owner and operator of Sea Run Pursuits
Spaz, I"m pretty sure that Mark has forgotten more than you know about spey casting. I would really apreciate it if you would stop acting like you know so much about a sport that you really know little more about than what you read on the interwebs.

Just sayin....

first it was thirteen pages on tip casting,
now we're on page six and Yuhina has just discovered overhang.
I'm out, this is worthless.

Newbies, beware of this guy.
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
It is my opinion a fairly linear tip path through the forward stroke with a slight drop at the end produces a good effective casting loop. These variables will aid in the formation of an aerodynamic slightly rounded leading edge that will effectively release, turn over, and transfer energy down the line. What happens at the tip is important,, but IMO the combination of optimum loading of the bottom (where the power in the rod is stored), right amount of line stick to help store and release that energy, and d-loop direction (180 degrees) are most important. I have stood and watched Scott Mackenzie bomb out some massive casts - big release, nice rounded leading edge aerodynamic loop. Not an ultra pointed v-loop as some think to be the best type of cast.
I have to agree with this post. I believe dropping the butt helps shape the loop after, after, energy transfer has occurred. I think the preceding posts illustrate this very nicely. You have more insight into the cast than you previously revealed, Mr T. Apologies for my previous slams.
 

Dan Page

Active Member
Mark,
I've skipped most of the posts. But I think your comments on post #144 sum it all up.-----

"" I feel the process of analyzing mechanics itself is more valuable than finding the final results.""

Mark,
You're a guy who like to analyze. There are no final results in sight for this thread.
No offense here.
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
Hi John, thanks for your insightful contribution. I have seen you cast.

Be careful though, Dr Yuhina has issues with confrontive people. He might ban you from the thread.

If you want to keep just sayin', we can meet on the Hinckley water next weekend and seek some proof. Game?
Bring your longbelly, we can see if this crap holds water or whether it's just shorthead cheating. You do have the casting mechanics for longer heads, right?
7 AM Saturday, Blue Creek boat launch. I'll buy the gas. Hell, I'll buy lunch.

Or you could, you know, shut the fuck up.
kindest regards.
Bob
 

yuhina

Tropical member
Look at his hands......the dip in the rod is simple rod deflection if you look at the end of the line where it joins the running line you see where the rod stop occured and thus the release of the stored energy from the rod, well above where the rod tip ends up, pretty much in line with his top hand.
Hi Bruce,

I agree! even the rod tip dipped into the water, the stop should happen early on, thus caused the rod bend into the other direction. I wonder if you can point out where he stop the rod? maybe it is hard to depict, but I will love to know where is your estimation. Thanks! Mark
 

John Hicks

Owner and operator of Sea Run Pursuits
No thanks Bob, I'm actualy busy. I don't cast the long belly, only cast one a couple times. Um, I'm washing my hair, go ahead and just plug in any one of the above excuses.

Really though, I think that Mark is a very insightful guy. Do I agree with everything he says, no probably not. I do not however bash him without ever having met him or even having any knowledge about him. I'm glad that you are feeling better about casting a long belly these days. Last year you told me that it was kicking your ass. Dan really is a good teacher I'm sure.



Hi John, thanks for your insightful contribution. I have seen you cast.

keep just sayin', we can meet on the Hinckley water next weekend and seek some proof. Game?
Bring your longbelly, we can see if this crap holds water or whether it's just shorthead cheating.
7 AM, Blue Creek boat launch. I'll buy the gas.

Or you could, you know, shut the fuck up.
kindest regards.
Bob
 
Mark,
Fine effort.
If you look at the "hump" in the lower leg of the D loop in the second and third frame--this is what I suggested would happen as a result of the circle-up maneuver previously mentioned in several of my postings. It should repeat in the inverse form at the release, as the rod tip surges slightly downward, lifting the lower leg of the loop UP. You previously pointed out this event, I'm only suggesting a proximate cause for it.

At :059, I suspect a release, but the rod tip is not clearly visible. Perhaps it occurs a fraction later, but in the next frame you display (#4), the hangdown is longer (so the release has already occurred by then), and the reverse bend is present in the hangdown segment of the running line.

By frame #4 in your presentation, I believe no more energy is being imparted to the line. So somewhere in the time frame between frame #3 and #4 (I can't determine it here) the input ceases.

Frame #5 displays the lift of the rear part of the head at the hinge between it and the "leader" or tippet (sinktip in my example) I described to you in my backyard experiment. The working weight of the head is fully airborne. Obvious, I know, but I have to point out something I'm absolutely unafraid to defend if necessary.

In the frames wherein the loop tightens, as you describe it--the caster could be free dumping shooting line (letting friction in the guides work), or letting it drag with finger resistance. No way to know without asking him. My guess is the former.

When do you see the application of input cease? (bearing in mind that this critical series of segments is likely only tenths or hundreths of a second in elapsed time).

Conclusion:
You must go out immediately and purchase many tens of thousands of dollars worth of expensive videography equipment, including proper lighting, sound recording, and sundry supplies and stage elaborate displays, hiring your fishing companions as staff consultants, consuming inordinate quanities of your liesure time so that we may know these things for a certainty, allowing the rest of us to fish your favorite haunts at our pleasure without fear of interruption.

Glad to be of assistance...
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
No thanks Bob, I'm actualy busy. I don't cast the long belly, only cast one a couple times. Um, I'm washing my hair, go ahead and just plug in any one of the above excuses.

Really though, I think that Mark is a very insightful guy. Do I agree with everything he says, no probably not. I do not however bash him without ever having met him or even having any knowledge about him. I'm glad that you are feeling better about casting a long belly these days. Last year you told me that it was kicking your ass. Dan really is a good teacher I'm sure.
Frankly bro, the longbelly still kicks my ass sometimes, other times not. I wrestle with the longer heads about 4 months of the year like clockwork...Wouldn't get in the way of me kicking your ass on it, though. You're the e-caster, not me.
I'm glad that you feel you've mastered casting while sticking to skagits, because that's the same game Yuhina is playing, and a plausible objection to his credentials. I have read his posts for years. I know fluff when I see it.
Dan, and several other guys who have helped me, have 20+ years on the DH rod. Each.
I feel no shame in saying I would suck if it weren't for them. Thanks to them, I don't.
You never seemed to me like the kind of guy who'd take a cheap slam. I'm surprised. Anytime you want to settle, or even just fish, you know how to get ahold of me.
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
the _G man, in post #150, definitely put some mojo out there. Sorry to taint your cred with my temporary unsavoriness, :hmmm: but a major point was made.
Whenever there is rotation there is arc. There is no absolutely straight tip path. We are humans after all.
The name of the game, and the reason for the old law of straight tip travel, has to do with inertia, imparting energy to the spear, and making it go with an unloading rod. You can input overhang and make it an atlatl, but the law of inertia in casting is irrevocable unless you want to settle for a shorter cast. And with a short head you might get away with that. I believe a principle that works for shortheads should also prove out in the mid-long range if it is true. Otherwise we are spincasting with lead.

Is there a worthwhile argument against that which will prove out when we all go down to the river?
 

SpeySpaz

still an authority on nothing
Originally Posted by Brady Burmeister

"Mark, any comment on Ed's response to this thread on the skagitmaster forum asserting that his rod tip does indeed travel a straight path? Seems like that would info be pertinent here since you referenced his casting numerous times."

I do have a comment on that... please check it back and I will explain them here later also ... as Ed has noted those are more complex elements in there... the different situations need to be addressed separately... It would be great to have more people join here for discussion though.. Mark
OK, checking back on post # 64, I and others are waiting for a response.
 

yuhina

Tropical member
Conclusion:
You must go out immediately and purchase many tens of thousands of dollars worth of expensive videography equipment, including proper lighting, sound recording, and sundry supplies and stage elaborate displays, hiring your companions as staff consultants, consuming inordinate quanities of your liesure time so that we may know these things for a certainty, allowing the rest of us to fish your favorite haunts at our pleasure without fear of interruption.

Glad to be of assistance...
Ha ha ha ha ha LOL thanks for the good laugh Greg...
I know it is like a drama... you probably know I have tried VERY hard to dissect the crucial moment between #3-4 to capture the release moment... but just can't stop the damn thing... well... at least will know the stop is somewhere between them...I have to keep working on some of the points you brought up... will post soon! thanks! Mark

Here is the camera I need!! http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/olympics/figureskating.jsp