in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Fred Krow

    Fred Krow Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Litchfield, CT
    Salmo g,

    Yes, thank you,,,,,that is what the basic teachings of Lefty Kreh describe.

    The line goes in the direction the rod tip is traveling at the end of the speed-up-and-stop.

    This is how the "Stab cast" is possible and how a short stroke high stop is possible without straight line path of rod tip.

    Forget the du/dt calculus, just observe the rod and line when casting.

    Regards,
    FK
     
  2. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    just finished the Tellis casting analysis see below frame by frame... yellow line is overhang, noticed the rod tip position change and the tighten up loop after shoot out... any thought are welcome..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Video 0:55 sec
     
  3. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    119
    Location:
    Trail, B.C., Canada.
    Look at his hands......the dip in the rod is simple rod deflection if you look at the end of the line where it joins the running line you see where the rod stop occured and thus the release of the stored energy from the rod, well above where the rod tip ends up, pretty much in line with his top hand.
     
  4. John Hicks

    John Hicks Owner and operator of Sea Run Pursuits

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Olympia
    Home Page:
    Spaz, I"m pretty sure that Mark has forgotten more than you know about spey casting. I would really apreciate it if you would stop acting like you know so much about a sport that you really know little more about than what you read on the interwebs.

    Just sayin....

     
  5. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    164
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    I have to agree with this post. I believe dropping the butt helps shape the loop after, after, energy transfer has occurred. I think the preceding posts illustrate this very nicely. You have more insight into the cast than you previously revealed, Mr T. Apologies for my previous slams.
     
  6. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    98
    Location:
    Yelm, Wa., USA.
    Mark,
    I've skipped most of the posts. But I think your comments on post #144 sum it all up.-----

    "" I feel the process of analyzing mechanics itself is more valuable than finding the final results.""

    Mark,
    You're a guy who like to analyze. There are no final results in sight for this thread.
    No offense here.
     
  7. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    164
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    Hi John, thanks for your insightful contribution. I have seen you cast.

    Be careful though, Dr Yuhina has issues with confrontive people. He might ban you from the thread.

    If you want to keep just sayin', we can meet on the Hinckley water next weekend and seek some proof. Game?
    Bring your longbelly, we can see if this crap holds water or whether it's just shorthead cheating. You do have the casting mechanics for longer heads, right?
    7 AM Saturday, Blue Creek boat launch. I'll buy the gas. Hell, I'll buy lunch.

    Or you could, you know, shut the fuck up.
    kindest regards.
    Bob
     
  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Hi Bruce,

    I agree! even the rod tip dipped into the water, the stop should happen early on, thus caused the rod bend into the other direction. I wonder if you can point out where he stop the rod? maybe it is hard to depict, but I will love to know where is your estimation. Thanks! Mark
     
  9. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
  10. John Hicks

    John Hicks Owner and operator of Sea Run Pursuits

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Olympia
    Home Page:
    No thanks Bob, I'm actualy busy. I don't cast the long belly, only cast one a couple times. Um, I'm washing my hair, go ahead and just plug in any one of the above excuses.

    Really though, I think that Mark is a very insightful guy. Do I agree with everything he says, no probably not. I do not however bash him without ever having met him or even having any knowledge about him. I'm glad that you are feeling better about casting a long belly these days. Last year you told me that it was kicking your ass. Dan really is a good teacher I'm sure.



     
  11. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    114
    Location:
    camano island, wa.
    Mark,
    Fine effort.
    If you look at the "hump" in the lower leg of the D loop in the second and third frame--this is what I suggested would happen as a result of the circle-up maneuver previously mentioned in several of my postings. It should repeat in the inverse form at the release, as the rod tip surges slightly downward, lifting the lower leg of the loop UP. You previously pointed out this event, I'm only suggesting a proximate cause for it.

    At :059, I suspect a release, but the rod tip is not clearly visible. Perhaps it occurs a fraction later, but in the next frame you display (#4), the hangdown is longer (so the release has already occurred by then), and the reverse bend is present in the hangdown segment of the running line.

    By frame #4 in your presentation, I believe no more energy is being imparted to the line. So somewhere in the time frame between frame #3 and #4 (I can't determine it here) the input ceases.

    Frame #5 displays the lift of the rear part of the head at the hinge between it and the "leader" or tippet (sinktip in my example) I described to you in my backyard experiment. The working weight of the head is fully airborne. Obvious, I know, but I have to point out something I'm absolutely unafraid to defend if necessary.

    In the frames wherein the loop tightens, as you describe it--the caster could be free dumping shooting line (letting friction in the guides work), or letting it drag with finger resistance. No way to know without asking him. My guess is the former.

    When do you see the application of input cease? (bearing in mind that this critical series of segments is likely only tenths or hundreths of a second in elapsed time).

    Conclusion:
    You must go out immediately and purchase many tens of thousands of dollars worth of expensive videography equipment, including proper lighting, sound recording, and sundry supplies and stage elaborate displays, hiring your fishing companions as staff consultants, consuming inordinate quanities of your liesure time so that we may know these things for a certainty, allowing the rest of us to fish your favorite haunts at our pleasure without fear of interruption.

    Glad to be of assistance...
     
  12. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    164
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    Frankly bro, the longbelly still kicks my ass sometimes, other times not. I wrestle with the longer heads about 4 months of the year like clockwork...Wouldn't get in the way of me kicking your ass on it, though. You're the e-caster, not me.
    I'm glad that you feel you've mastered casting while sticking to skagits, because that's the same game Yuhina is playing, and a plausible objection to his credentials. I have read his posts for years. I know fluff when I see it.
    Dan, and several other guys who have helped me, have 20+ years on the DH rod. Each.
    I feel no shame in saying I would suck if it weren't for them. Thanks to them, I don't.
    You never seemed to me like the kind of guy who'd take a cheap slam. I'm surprised. Anytime you want to settle, or even just fish, you know how to get ahold of me.
     
  13. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    164
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    the _G man, in post #150, definitely put some mojo out there. Sorry to taint your cred with my temporary unsavoriness, :hmmm: but a major point was made.
    Whenever there is rotation there is arc. There is no absolutely straight tip path. We are humans after all.
    The name of the game, and the reason for the old law of straight tip travel, has to do with inertia, imparting energy to the spear, and making it go with an unloading rod. You can input overhang and make it an atlatl, but the law of inertia in casting is irrevocable unless you want to settle for a shorter cast. And with a short head you might get away with that. I believe a principle that works for shortheads should also prove out in the mid-long range if it is true. Otherwise we are spincasting with lead.

    Is there a worthwhile argument against that which will prove out when we all go down to the river?
     
  14. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    164
    Location:
    Roy, WA
    Originally Posted by Brady Burmeister

    "Mark, any comment on Ed's response to this thread on the skagitmaster forum asserting that his rod tip does indeed travel a straight path? Seems like that would info be pertinent here since you referenced his casting numerous times."

    OK, checking back on post # 64, I and others are waiting for a response.
     
  15. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Boston-Idaho
    Home Page:
    Ha ha ha ha ha LOL thanks for the good laugh Greg...
    I know it is like a drama... you probably know I have tried VERY hard to dissect the crucial moment between #3-4 to capture the release moment... but just can't stop the damn thing... well... at least will know the stop is somewhere between them...I have to keep working on some of the points you brought up... will post soon! thanks! Mark

    Here is the camera I need!! http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/olympics/figureskating.jsp