in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Roll credits...

    Props (more or less in order of appearance):
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    Special Guest Appearance: Men in tight speedos, thrusting inappropriately.

    Stunts and Special Effects: hmmm...better not.
     
  2. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    well, I wouldn't want to be perceived as personally attacking Mark,
    but I must say we're at page fifteen and still don't see how any of this tightens a loop or improves my cast.
    reference post #1.
    Still, the lasso guy was entertaining. LMFAO was better though.
    Life is a carnival, after all.
     
  3. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Spaz, you've made it quite clear that you don't need any help improving your cast or tightening your loops. Maybe the results will be different for other people. Maybe not. Certainly in fifteen pages there is something for everyone.
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg, one point at a time, I will finish your quest no matter how long it will take.


    point C when the overhang rotate up, all the system reach the highest speed, is the point we stop and release the line at the same time.
    Trebuchet don’t need to stop because of this very same reason, the line at the highest speed and on the farest part perpendicular to the force, like hammer thorw, you don’t need stop, but you need to cut the tension. Trebuchet cut the tension by not attaching anything to the pumpkin, it uses sling to hold it. So when the angle is right, it released. (this is the same principle that Ed use centrifugal force #1 second video) On the other said, the catapult is different. You need stop to get the pumpkin going, why? Please explain to me your version. My answer here is there is no overhang to cut the sharp angle and let the centrifugal force to fully work out the departure. Thus the dramatic shock from the bar created opposite acceleration direction ( a) and the pumplin flip out. This is the same principle SLP and hard stop in Chris’s cast (#1 First video – page1).

    Trebuchet : pay attention to the sling, this is our overhang, see what angle they release the highest speed.



    Catapult: no sling/overhang, hard stop is required.


    The first diagram I draw, paste here for reference.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg,

    Obviously, the rod is capable to manipulate the line in any stage otherwise the cast won’t happen. “In common usage the term "inertia" may refer to an object's "amount of resistance to change in velocity" (which is quantified by its mass), or sometimes to its momentum, depending on the context. The term "inertia" is more properly understood as shorthand for "the principle of inertia" as described by Newton in his First Law of Motion”

    Momentum is much suitable for us to discuss those casting mechanics. It written as p = m * v (= (m)mass times (v)velocity). There are two kind of momentum. Linear momentum (Chris video) for linear movement, and angular momentum (Ed’s video) for rotation movement and also there could have hybrid form.
    As you can see, the speed up process during cast was due to adding forces to the object. As soon as you add force in the same moving direction, it will speed up, thus momentum goes up. (equation: p = m * v). So even adding force in the rotation of my diagram is “small” because of partial vector. It will still increase the speed in the horizonal direction, thus increase the momentum.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

    (today I have a bit extra time in hand, (holiday), so I will try to bust out more answers to you) Mark
     
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg,

    Dynamic pivot is what you see in Chris video. By shifting pivot point back and forth to create the longer SLP (straight line rod tip path), a lot of long liner rock their body to achieve this long SLP acceleration. Henrick Mortensen also doing this in his underhand cast. See video below.


    However, Goran’s original invention – underhand technique is different than those long SLP pivot shifting. His pivot is relatively fixed (he does do some drift sometimes) see video clip of Goran. His main idea and invention of underhand technique if often misinterpreted, sadly. It not just use lower hand to power the rod. Let me repeat this again, it is NOT just power the rod use lower hand. The very important concept is forgotten, it is shifting the casting center to the caster and use relatively fix pivot, “then” use dominant hand to do the power. The first part of this top hand move to place the pivot point to the caster is very crucial and this reveal in his drawing of how beneficial could be to move the pivot point closer to your body.
    Pay attention to 1:48 sec - 2:20 sec

    It eliminate the not necessary drift and put the best stroke on top of his head, short stroke, tight loop. Keep in mind, he is using short SLP. NOT rotation circular movement at all. That is the point I want to make in the previous posts that IF YOU FIX YOUR PIVOT POINT, THE ONLY WAY TO DO THE SLP IS SHORT STROKE, THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HAVE SLP BY USING LONG STROKE. THERE IS NO ROD IN THE WORLD CAN DO THAT.

    Just a side note for people who believe the long stroke in soft rod can achieve SLP even casting in a single pivot point…(I think this is totally impossible in physics and you can test this at home)

    I have a dredger 12’9 6/7 and there is no way dredge can do long stroke and still remain SLP. You can test this by yourself, try to mimic Ed’s long stoke and watch the rod position, (tape the mid-low blank with colorful tape; because this is the place rod stop bending). So if you think the rod tip deflection will compensate the rotation arc and make the line go SLP (which I think it is impossible). Then you have to test this and report it back. (hope this also respond to Trevor’s SLP comment in Ed’s cast)

    OK, time out, need to work, Merry Christmas! Mark
     
  7. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    I think the casting rod with a lead weight is still a valid argument against the trebuchet (or this theory of changing the loop) as you have overhang and a weight like a pumpkin but once you release the weight on the forward cast-stop a follow thru or whatever you want to call it will not speed up or make said weight go any further.
     
  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Bruce,

    You are absolutely right!!

    However, we are talking about the movement before the overhang turn vertical. I you can picture the moment right BEFORE spin casting release the plug. That's the moment we are talking... the reason you mis-depic the moment is because the spin casting always shoot for 45 degree higher than horizontal direction in fly casting. if you rotate the spey casting upward 45 drgree (the new trajectory like spin casting). Then you will realized the overhangs are doing the same, the rod are pulling the same.

    Hope this help explain.
    (really need to go... will back tonight or tomorrow)
    Happy Holiday!

    Mark
     
  9. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    You can easily adjust the angle of your cast with a spinning rod and you still will not speed up or make your weight go further with the follow thru
     
  10. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I have posted post#1 in this thread to refresh all's memory.

    your most recent comment:
    "It eliminate the not necessary drift and put the best stroke on top of his head, short stroke, tight loop. Keep in mind, he is using short SLP. NOT rotation circular movement at all. That is the point I want to make in the previous posts that IF YOU FIX YOUR PIVOT POINT, THE ONLY WAY TO DO THE SLP IS SHORT STROKE, THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HAVE SLP BY USING LONG STROKE. THERE IS NO ROD IN THE WORLD CAN DO THAT.

    Just a side note for people who believe the long stroke in soft rod can achieve SLP even casting in a single pivot point…(I think this is totally impossible in physics and you can test this at home)

    I have a dredger 12’9 6/7 and there is no way dredge can do long stroke and still remain SLP. You can test this by yourself, try to mimic Ed’s long stoke and watch the rod position, (tape the mid-low blank with colorful tape; because this is the place rod stop bending). So if you think the rod tip deflection will compensate the rotation arc and make the line go SLP (which I think it is impossible). Then you have to test this and report it back. (hope this also respond to Trevor’s SLP comment in Ed’s cast)

    OK, time out, need to work, Merry Christmas! Mark"


    You have just answered the question, why do they build scandi-specific rods? But not fulfilled your original postulate, that of an alternative to straight rod path.
    This is part one.
     
  11. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Part two:
    You have successfully reinvented, or I should say, reverse engineered- scandicasting. I say that with a smile, it's not an attack. You have simply taken the -very- long way around to say what some of us already know.

    Mark, everyone, have you ever felt the love? that's the rod blank feedback telling you all forces are in balance and you are achieving the directed transmission of energy we are all looking for, in every single cast. I could go back if I knew how multiquoting works and pull every objection I've made out, and they would add up. But you can feel it, when all the forces discussed in this thread and others...are harmoniously propelling a line. The rod, technique and caster conspire to achieve it. We bring it all together to direct the rod tip and therefore direct the line.

    I didn't understand that in this whole thread you were speaking strictly about Andersson-style underhanding, specifically with underlined rods- with it's abbreviated A>B, or what you have called "relatively fixed pivot point". The premise breaks down badly when applied to a skagit head, because A>B/moving fulcrum is how we achieve relatively straight tip path>>straight line path with a softer rod or a rod that is properly loaded. In the Goran video, he is popping casts out there and he barely accesses the middle of the blank. It's a vid, after all, that's not a heavy criticism. But I think you may have gone astray by drawing conclusions from it. With a heavier head, standing waist deep, Goran will both drift and input a very short A>B stroke. He must. The line demands it. Mid/ Longbellies, wow, I can't even bring that in here. This thread's not even on the same planet as longbelly casting.

    Yes, it is true that you cannot have SLP, with practically any rod, using a strictly fixed pivot point, due to the proportional relationship of the length of the arc to the radius... there's a proportional relationship between A>B/moving fulcrum/rod length/line length/line weight and characteristics/degree and timing of power application...all these are factored in when deciding how to cast a particular setup and all are relative to the individual caster. And I totally agree that you can't achieve SLP with the Dredger using a fixed pivot point. Of course not, you'd have to shorten the arc so far that there'd be no power. Using rotation only, without a moving fulcrum...well, you'll see that at a beginner's casting class, but only the first one! So, fast rod-short stroke-abbreviated A>B is scandi. OK, I knew that before this thread started.

    So here's my question: it's not an attack, it's an invitation-
    Can you reconcile your assertion at the beginning of the thread (straight rod path principle not required), with the latest comment (where achieving SLP seems to be a top priority).
    What do you say we get to the point.
    regards, and merry Christmas to you and yours.


    BTW, a suggestion. Don't ignore this post. Take it head on, bluntly, with a cogent answer that a regular guy can understand. When you do that, you engender respect in your readers, even as you are demonstrating mastery of the concept. Just a helpful hint from a guy who teaches people as part of his job.
     
  12. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Speyspaz,

    Santa is kind enough to visit me last night, brought me a great life lesson and also mentioned I should continue to be kind and generous to other people this year. so here is the answer for you. just see it as your morning surprise from Santa and again please respect others and your welcome to join the discussion. thank you.

    First , I have mention those casting mechanics difference between Ed and Goran in the post #104 so you might want to go back and check it out again. here I briefly pasted them here for your reference. see I how mentioned the DIFFERENCE in straight line rod tip path BTEWEEN them (SLRTP)
    here is the drawing I recall from Goran's underhand technique.
    noted how he put the pivot point to his own casting center (video above, 1:48-2:30 sec), created a very short stroke in a fashion of SLRTP (straight line rod tip path).
    also Noted the lower panel was indicated the rod tip dipped in front WITHOUT OVERHANG. (we need to keep in mind, Ed and Tellis all using overhang, and my whole argument is the new concept of utilizing overhang to generate extra rotational- pulling power and make a perfect loop) I have put this difference in overhang by using two ancient saige weapons Trebuchet versus Catapult. please see post # 214
    [​IMG]

    Can you picture the difference between Goran's casting stroke and Ed's? (they both DO NOT rock their body back and forth during casting stroke) also here is the question for you, why his casting technique only will work for SHORT scandi head? why this up hand single pivot point technique won't work for LONG line casting (say75-85' head). Mark
     
  13. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Mark,
    It is indeed a gift to me that you answered directly. Kudos for your stones. This is growth.
    I approach casting experimentally and have tried a few crazy things myself, and I appreciate new ideas...reference Skandit! so now that you've explained the premise we can all work on it.
    The last couple times I went out I did try this concept out, particularly for a few hours yesterday. I used a 75' shooting head on my 15' Greased Liner and a 600 gr skagit on a classic 9140 Brownie. I managed to get a cast out with 9' of overhang on the Brownie, a new record for me, but I almost dropped a nut doing it and it was a very very ugly loop that was created. The longbelly was hopeless for me unless I kept the overhang at three feet or less, but then it cast very nicely and with minimal effort. That may be more of a criticism of my casting than your idea, that's one possibility that I accept. Some days its harder to find my longbelly groove than others.
    BTW, I touched a few salmon with both the floater and skagit systems, but nothing more than one brief hookup.
    I try to get out for a couple hours this AM if I can, it's sort of my gift to self when the schedule allows. I'll take a scandi outfit and see if I get any results with it.
    I have some thoughts myself about why or why not your concept is accurate, but I need a couple more hours casting on it.
     
  14. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    Good Morning to all Merry Christmas

    Couple of notes to think on
    This has been covered but I will touch on one point this morning.
    The Straight Line Path of the rod tip is the flight path that the tip takes during casting.
    The flight path can be strait , a curve or even a circle.
    The Flight path may be domed where the rod tip goes above the intended path (opening wide forward or backward loop ).
    But is should not be dipped below or tailing loop will be formed.

    To see more look at this site http://www.virtualflycasting.com/

    To take a good look at casting in ovals and parallels this is good a book
    A Fly Fisher's Life: The Art and Mechanics of Fly Fishing By Charles Ritz

    Must leave to start on Christmas Dinner


    :cool:
     
  15. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    I caught a black and white steelhead yesterday. The cast wasn't pretty, I mended it onto shape, then the damn fish took on the 4 strip of line. Moral of the story is that it doesn't really matter as long as you get it out there and there are fish present.

    Go Sox,
    cds