in search of a perfect loop

Greg Holt

Active Member
#16
I'll play one round in this game: in the first video (Christopher Rownes') there appears to be no fly, no sink tip. The forward stroke is inclined outward from vertical (especially in the single hand casts), and when filmed from a low downstream camera angle it makes it appear to be a tighter loop than it actually is, since the loop is forming partially sidearm (which, not coincidentally helps prevent tailing loops). Not saying it is purposeful slight of hand, just pointing it out. If you try his high hard stop with a heavy sinktip and a heavy fly, you have what is commonly referred to as a "mess", since gravity acts on the sinktip whlle in flight, pulling it downwards onto the outgoing loop, only forward velocity saves the tailing loop.

Ed's final cast is cackhanded, which forces the rod tip into a high, flat plane for an extended period, which assists in forming that upward-tilted "tight" loop. If you watch his strong-side casts in other videos, his forward delivery is low and slingshot when casting sinktips and large flies.

In Ed's video, with the constant tension he supplies, if he didn't have a sinktip and a gnarly fly, he might have trouble holding the anchor, given the continuous pulling on the line during the cast.

Further, Christopher's rod is a Loop scandi stick--designed to yield an advantage when throwing tight loops on floating heads. Ed's rod is similar to the dredger taper--more of a catapult with a softer midsection and relatively stiffer tip.

Tight loops may or may not pack the most energy (velocity and mass matter, too), but they look pretty and are drag resistant. I've seen many slow moving tight loops that could barely carry a leader, let alone a sinktip and a big fly!

I would suggest these two casting "styles" are purposeful for the result intended with the added notion that the parts are not interchangeable. Apples and Oranges.
 
#17
Pan, do I really need to explain to you???
If you can control your cast ie tight loops, or distance, or whatever is a by product of being a good caster, you can set up your cast so that your fly is fishing as soon as it lands, and can do so in a raging wind, or fish for fish that have been pushed out or whatever.
Far better than mending the line and jerking your fly all over the place.
But I am sure you knew all this ;-)
As a side note all the best casters I know and fish with are superior steelheaders!
 
#18
I think in flyfishing it does matter how you get it out there... So much of the sport, we hold dear, is about the tradition, gear and technique. Think I'm wrong? just look at all the theads dedicated to technique and gear. If it really didn't matter how we got it out there, we wouldn't discuss techinque, lines, the "New rod", and beat our chests and boast how much of a gear whore we are. Instead we would concentrate more on water types, presentation, and river/stream tactics.

I know when I'm frustrated and flogging the water, I usually call my days short. On the other hand when everything comes together and I'm shooting lazers there never seems to be enough light in the day.

James.
 

yuhina

Tropical member
#20
Hey Gentlemen,

All great points...

distance without control has no value! OK If you think distance is everything, then you need to come down to the earth, if you think distance doesn't matter... then, you are living in the fishing heaven...
see video below

 

yuhina

Tropical member
#21
I'll play one round in this game: in the first video (Christopher Rownes') there appears to be no fly, no sink tip. The forward stroke is inclined outward from vertical (especially in the single hand casts), and when filmed from a low downstream camera angle it makes it appear to be a tighter loop than it actually is, since the loop is forming partially sidearm (which, not coincidentally helps prevent tailing loops). Not saying it is purposeful slight of hand, just pointing it out. If you try his high hard stop with a heavy sinktip and a heavy fly, you have what is commonly referred to as a "mess", since gravity acts on the sinktip whlle in flight, pulling it downwards onto the outgoing loop, only forward velocity saves the tailing loop.

Ed's final cast is cackhanded, which forces the rod tip into a high, flat plane for an extended period, which assists in forming that upward-tilted "tight" loop. If you watch his strong-side casts in other videos, his forward delivery is low and slingshot when casting sinktips and large flies.

In Ed's video, with the constant tension he supplies, if he didn't have a sinktip and a gnarly fly, he might have trouble holding the anchor, given the continuous pulling on the line during the cast.

Further, Christopher's rod is a Loop scandi stick--designed to yield an advantage when throwing tight loops on floating heads. Ed's rod is similar to the dredger taper--more of a catapult with a softer midsection and relatively stiffer tip.

Tight loops may or may not pack the most energy (velocity and mass matter, too), but they look pretty and are drag resistant. I've seen many slow moving tight loops that could barely carry a leader, let alone a sinktip and a big fly!

I would suggest these two casting "styles" are purposeful for the result intended with the added notion that the parts are not interchangeable. Apples and Oranges.
Greg,

Great points here... Thanks! we need to go back to your post!
But I am in a party now... so... people ... go on!! : )

Mark
 
#22
Well, Bruce, you're out of my league and I don't mean that sarcastically. I'm not a great caster.
Pan, no offence intended, but if you want to be a better caster its not going to happen by saying that casting does not matter. A little practice away from fishing and instruction can go a long ways to making oneself a better caster and fisher!
 

yuhina

Tropical member
#26
I think in flyfishing it does matter how you get it out there... So much of the sport, we hold dear, is about the tradition, gear and technique. Think I'm wrong? just look at all the theads dedicated to technique and gear. If it really didn't matter how we got it out there, we wouldn't discuss techinque, lines, the "New rod", and beat our chests and boast how much of a gear whore we are. Instead we would concentrate more on water types, presentation, and river/stream tactics.

I know when I'm frustrated and flogging the water, I usually call my days short. On the other hand when everything comes together and I'm shooting lazers there never seems to be enough light in the day.

James.
I can't agree with you more! James,
well said! Mark
 

Dan Page

Active Member
#27
Mark,
When it comes to tight loops, I don't think you can do it without straight rod tip movement on the forward cast stroke. You mention Ed's cast has lots of circular movements, and that's true in setting up for the forward stroke. But, I guarantee you Ed's forward stroke has a perfectly straight rod tip movement or his casts would not be so efficient. Nonstraight rod tip movement is inefficient use of rod energy. Nonstaight rod tip movement on the forward cast will give a nonstraight line delivery.
Am I wrong on this?
 

Klickrolf

Active Member
#30
Hey Gentlemen,

All great points...

distance without control has no value! OK If you think distance is everything, then you need to come down to the earth, if you think distance doesn't matter... then, you are living in the fishing heaven...
see video below

Mel's right, loading the rod is number 1. Releasing that load is number 2. Using the rod's potential flex efficiently (to it's max) is what makes lines go out farther with tighter loops. Certainly technique and skill are pre-requisites...But fishing is much more than this. Line control after the cast is what catches fish, whether casting long or short.