Washington Fly Fishing Forum banner

in search of a perfect loop

Spey 
27K views 375 replies 34 participants last post by  Dan Page 
#1 ·
http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/board/showthread.php?82119-Tight-loops

Hi All,

In the previous post about tight loops, there are quite a lot of discussions about how to make a tight loop, there are some good suggestions. However, there are more than one way to get a tight loop, above thread has mentioned one traditional straight rod path principle. Here I want to illustrate and hopefully get some opinions about the second type of tight loop...see videos below... discuss away if you will... but please keep in mind personal attack is not allowed in this board and this thread. Just kindly remind you please respect others if you want to jump in. Thanks,:thumb: Mark

The traditional tight loop: (2:30 sec)


The new concept of tight loop: (0:45 sec)
 
#2 ·
I don't quite get where you are going here. In Ed Ward's video, he states that his videos are totally untricked to show pretty casting. He is chucking big flies. The top video looks like no fly or a very small fly. Showing those nice tight loops when you are chucking a big fly is still something I don't think I've mastered. So I look at these two videos showing one being in Hollywood vs the Hoh

Joe
 
#3 ·
Hi Joe,

I can't comment on the perfect loop cast (top one), because I rarely cast in this style. I use Ed's style. and I agree with you his style can chuck big fly and still maintain a good sharp loop. This doesn't mean that the top video (Chris) can't chuck a big fly with tight loop. Both casts has their places I guess...

What I want to illustrate here is the different casting movement they are using. If look closer, Ed's rod tip never form a straight line path as traditional casting instruction suggested. His rod tip actually is quite circular around and use a lot of rotation movement.

Mark
 
#5 ·
I'm no jedi caster, so I really can't speak to the detail level of casting. Ed talks about a sustained water anchor. His video shows a style I've never seen before where he is essentially dumping the line all around him so that he is maximizing the anchor and the load on the rod. That is immaterial with regards to the anchor which probably relates to the last casting motion.

To me, a spey rod is a very efficient tool for casting big flies all day. Ed's video emphasizes minimizing effort, keeping the motion of the hands is very compact. So I suspect his style reflects economy of effort rather than being pretty. That circular aspect is reflecting little arm and shoulder motion vs first caster

I often see that type of upward pointing loop with skagit casting when I am watching my fishing partner. I wonder how much the sustained anchor and having to rip sinking lines out of the water.

Joe
 
#7 ·
... Ed's video emphasizes minimizing effort, keeping the motion of the hands is very compact. So I suspect his style reflects economy of effort rather than being pretty. That circular aspect is reflecting little arm and shoulder motion vs first caster

Joe
Joe, great observation and I think you got the very important point. The less effort and better efficiency is centered in his style. The circular motion is the key element in all his casts. Great input! Joe
Mark

see clip on the time frame - 0:16 sec ; 0:29 sec ; 0:36 sec for the circular forward stroke

 
#8 ·
I should clarify my mumbling. Eds casting style reminds me of someone fishing. The first video looks like someone casting. In Eds video I see him dropping the tip soon. I do this, for some reason, when I am casting short. My casting style for a floating line is very different than with a skagit line. For a floating line, I will stop high and achieve tight loops (usually smaller lighter flies). For a skagit line, I feel I sometimes stop lower. I know my loops are generally wider when casting a skagit line. I don't know if it is the mechanics of the line and what is involved with what I feel is a lot more to load the rod and a lot more to pull out of the water. Its the difference between a touch a go cast vs a sustained anchor, a big ass fly, and a sink tip that must be pulled out of the water.

Joe
 
#9 ·
Honestly, who cares about tight loops when casting short heads and big flies? All I care about is mechanics in terms of getting the fly out and fishing. I have no idea how pretty it is; its probably pretty nasty, but I can cast the hell out of it and catch fish. Longer lines? I care a little more, but not much. I'm a fisherman not a caster. I don't spend time on ponds analyzing my cast or really try to achieve anything other than: anchor, D, go, mend, pull, fish to bank. We all have different styles, which is what makes it interesting and unique. I'm just not really interested in being a pretty, great caster. I am interested in being a very good steelheader.
 
#11 ·
Casting well and fishing well do go hand in hand. Especially with short heads IMHO. I'm interesting in improving my casting technique because I think it will help me catch more fish. Tight loops will cut the wind better as well as slide under overhangs better. Better turnover makes for a more effective mend. And with a short head on a longer cast in challenging currents you are only get one mend to set up your swing or none even. The better you can tackle challenging scenarios the more potentially untouched water opens up for you. with as many people and as few fish as there are I will take any advantage I can get.

That's the short of it anyway.
 
#13 ·
I think Poppy says it best, "it doesn't matter how you get it out there, as long as you get it out there." Or something like that. What I'm saying is, I don't obsess about how it looks fundementally, as long as it fishes. In other words, I know guys who are great casters but poor steelheaders, and decent casters who are fishy freaks. A pretty cast doesn't catch fish. What you do after the line hits the water does. Sorry, Mark, not trying to hijack or discount your other points made here.
 
#16 ·
I'll play one round in this game: in the first video (Christopher Rownes') there appears to be no fly, no sink tip. The forward stroke is inclined outward from vertical (especially in the single hand casts), and when filmed from a low downstream camera angle it makes it appear to be a tighter loop than it actually is, since the loop is forming partially sidearm (which, not coincidentally helps prevent tailing loops). Not saying it is purposeful slight of hand, just pointing it out. If you try his high hard stop with a heavy sinktip and a heavy fly, you have what is commonly referred to as a "mess", since gravity acts on the sinktip whlle in flight, pulling it downwards onto the outgoing loop, only forward velocity saves the tailing loop.

Ed's final cast is cackhanded, which forces the rod tip into a high, flat plane for an extended period, which assists in forming that upward-tilted "tight" loop. If you watch his strong-side casts in other videos, his forward delivery is low and slingshot when casting sinktips and large flies.

In Ed's video, with the constant tension he supplies, if he didn't have a sinktip and a gnarly fly, he might have trouble holding the anchor, given the continuous pulling on the line during the cast.

Further, Christopher's rod is a Loop scandi stick--designed to yield an advantage when throwing tight loops on floating heads. Ed's rod is similar to the dredger taper--more of a catapult with a softer midsection and relatively stiffer tip.

Tight loops may or may not pack the most energy (velocity and mass matter, too), but they look pretty and are drag resistant. I've seen many slow moving tight loops that could barely carry a leader, let alone a sinktip and a big fly!

I would suggest these two casting "styles" are purposeful for the result intended with the added notion that the parts are not interchangeable. Apples and Oranges.
 
#21 ·
I'll play one round in this game: in the first video (Christopher Rownes') there appears to be no fly, no sink tip. The forward stroke is inclined outward from vertical (especially in the single hand casts), and when filmed from a low downstream camera angle it makes it appear to be a tighter loop than it actually is, since the loop is forming partially sidearm (which, not coincidentally helps prevent tailing loops). Not saying it is purposeful slight of hand, just pointing it out. If you try his high hard stop with a heavy sinktip and a heavy fly, you have what is commonly referred to as a "mess", since gravity acts on the sinktip whlle in flight, pulling it downwards onto the outgoing loop, only forward velocity saves the tailing loop.

Ed's final cast is cackhanded, which forces the rod tip into a high, flat plane for an extended period, which assists in forming that upward-tilted "tight" loop. If you watch his strong-side casts in other videos, his forward delivery is low and slingshot when casting sinktips and large flies.

In Ed's video, with the constant tension he supplies, if he didn't have a sinktip and a gnarly fly, he might have trouble holding the anchor, given the continuous pulling on the line during the cast.

Further, Christopher's rod is a Loop scandi stick--designed to yield an advantage when throwing tight loops on floating heads. Ed's rod is similar to the dredger taper--more of a catapult with a softer midsection and relatively stiffer tip.

Tight loops may or may not pack the most energy (velocity and mass matter, too), but they look pretty and are drag resistant. I've seen many slow moving tight loops that could barely carry a leader, let alone a sinktip and a big fly!

I would suggest these two casting "styles" are purposeful for the result intended with the added notion that the parts are not interchangeable. Apples and Oranges.
Greg,

Great points here... Thanks! we need to go back to your post!
But I am in a party now... so... people ... go on!! : )

Mark
 
#17 ·
Pan, do I really need to explain to you???
If you can control your cast ie tight loops, or distance, or whatever is a by product of being a good caster, you can set up your cast so that your fly is fishing as soon as it lands, and can do so in a raging wind, or fish for fish that have been pushed out or whatever.
Far better than mending the line and jerking your fly all over the place.
But I am sure you knew all this ;-)
As a side note all the best casters I know and fish with are superior steelheaders!
 
#18 ·
I think in flyfishing it does matter how you get it out there... So much of the sport, we hold dear, is about the tradition, gear and technique. Think I'm wrong? just look at all the theads dedicated to technique and gear. If it really didn't matter how we got it out there, we wouldn't discuss techinque, lines, the "New rod", and beat our chests and boast how much of a gear whore we are. Instead we would concentrate more on water types, presentation, and river/stream tactics.

I know when I'm frustrated and flogging the water, I usually call my days short. On the other hand when everything comes together and I'm shooting lazers there never seems to be enough light in the day.

James.
 
#20 ·
Hey Gentlemen,

All great points...

distance without control has no value! OK If you think distance is everything, then you need to come down to the earth, if you think distance doesn't matter... then, you are living in the fishing heaven...
see video below

 
#30 ·
Mel's right, loading the rod is number 1. Releasing that load is number 2. Using the rod's potential flex efficiently (to it's max) is what makes lines go out farther with tighter loops. Certainly technique and skill are pre-requisites...But fishing is much more than this. Line control after the cast is what catches fish, whether casting long or short.
 
#27 ·
Mark,
When it comes to tight loops, I don't think you can do it without straight rod tip movement on the forward cast stroke. You mention Ed's cast has lots of circular movements, and that's true in setting up for the forward stroke. But, I guarantee you Ed's forward stroke has a perfectly straight rod tip movement or his casts would not be so efficient. Nonstraight rod tip movement is inefficient use of rod energy. Nonstaight rod tip movement on the forward cast will give a nonstraight line delivery.
Am I wrong on this?
 
#32 ·
Hey Dan,

First, I appreciate your explanation! I think we can discuss further if we all agree the circular movement during the pre-forward stroke stage. there is no doubt that the circular movement is in there before the forward stroke. Now... we can just concentrate on the forward stroke.
I said forward stroke is rotating, and some people say the forward stroke is a straight line path. How could we find it out?

There is one thing clear stand out if you watch the videos again, and there are some hints in there...

1) Chris stop the rod tip just as high as his back stroke... but Ed stop the rod tip as much lower than his back stroke position. why those two positions are different?

2) Chris rock his body back and forth to facilitate the forward stroke. Ed stand like a statue, only use his hands to pivot the rod.

those are two major difference during the forward strokes. and it is crucial for us to depict the power application.

Mark
 
#34 ·
Chris is using an underhand SH cast, which used camera angle to create a narrow-looking loop with a floating line. (by no means traditional, have no idea why you called it that.)
Ed uses a straightforward near-vertical DH stroke, that created a nicely shaped loop with a heavy tip and fly (not new, don't know why you called it that).

I think this thread is going into the winter OCD zone, strarting from post #1, which compares apples/oranges, starts out with some poorly thought out insights from Mark, and I predict will devolve from there. The only thing being illuminated here is one man's lack of insight; it will be interesting to see what he gets schooled on this time:rofl:

If I get Mark's statement right, you don't have to be a good caster to be a good caster...
Were one to demonstrate real perspective and insight and say "you don't have to cast great distances to catch fish" well, I could go along with that for most waters, but still, I disagree with the premise of the thread. Shaping the loop is driven by conditions, there are many variables, and sharp, pointy v-loops are not always the goal.
 
#35 ·
First of all, I will like to express my appreciation to some of the people here that are presenting some very good observations to facilitate our discussion. Thank you.

Second, let me kindly remind you, if you are not interested in this comparison, just one click away. There are so many interesting threads in this forum to explore, No hard feeling.

Third, I have some fine email exchanges with Bruce this morning, and that is really a wonderful experience to exchange ideas with a true friend... as you guys might see we can get very "excited" at times. but true friends are here for pointing out the real puzzle. So please don't get disturbed by our honesty. As you can see, Adam (Panhandle) is my true brother and I even tease him with Mel Keiger's video. I hope he still see me as his brother : )

Forth, there is one interesting and fun exchange this morning with Bruce I would love to share with you guys...
-----------------------------------

Question for everyone here.... please read it slowly

The finest distance casters in the world are the finest casters.
The finest casters in the worlds are the finest distance casters.

tell me what you agree, both or just one. why?

Cheers,
Mark
 
#36 ·
:beathead:Let me kindly remind you, it's not your thread, it's OUR thread. You can't stand to have your conclusions challenged, Mark. Problem with that? The answer is one click away, my brother. Try this silliness on Speypages and see if it lasts 13 pages...LOL

The last thread, which you bailed on, addressed the same point you just brought up. Apparently you didn't like the answer.
Distance casting is a high expression of proper use of casting physics and form. Distance is only one of the many benefits of good form.
Excellent form is useful in the pursuit of accuracy, artful presentation, fishing under tough or restricted conditions, and reaching far lies, and is less demanding physically when fishing at normal distances. Every superb caster I've ever met, both SH and DH, had some good competency in achieving distance because it's a natural result of good form.

Still waiting, by the way, for you to post up a video ...of yourself...that illustrates your knowledge in this area.

edit: the answer to your question in #32 is, "straight tip path". Comparing power application in a SH underhander with a floater against a DH skagitcaster with heavy tips is apples/oranges. Back to straight tip path>>>straight line path>>>nicely shaped loop.

In post #3 stated goal of the thread was to compare straight tip path vs curved in the creation of a nice loop. Everybody looked at the videos posted and arived at the conclusion that Ed made nice loops with straight tip path, too, and several knowledgeable anglers have posted that straight tip path is an essential in shaping the loop. To echo the sentiments expressed throughout this thread, what's your point? Straight tip path is not essential to shape the loop? I haven't heard one person agree with that yet.
Is this going to drag on for 13 pages, or are we done yet?
 
#38 ·
Hey Dan,

my answer for the first question is : No, straight line rod tip path is not essential to create the tight loop. there are several different ways to do so...

Mark
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top